Why Traditional Leadership Development Programs Fail to Deliver Results with Ginny Baillie

Carolyn: Hi, welcome to evolve a new era of leadership. I am your host, Carolyn Swora. Today on our show, I’m really excited to be talking to our guest, Ginny Baillie. Ginny is from [00:01:00] the UK and is the founder of a leadership development company called Drum. We’re going to talk about leadership development over the years, and we are going to learn about this really unique approach to leadership development that Gina has been doing since 2017.

So if you are a leader who is interested in growing and learning and developing, you are going to enjoy this episode. I’m really excited. Let’s dive in.

 Hello, Evolve listeners. We’re back with another episode. I’m your host, Carolyn Swara, and today I’m so excited to be talking to our wonderful guest, Ginny Bailey. She’s from the UK and sporting an amazing t shirt that I’m in love with already.

I’m envious. Ginny, welcome to the show.

Ginny: Thank you for having me. I’m being envious of my t shirt. Always love a

Carolyn: Yes, it’s a wham shirt. Everybody can’t see it. So we’re already starting [00:02:00] off on a fun foot. But Jenny, you were boldly Referenced with a previous guest that I had, Blair Palmer punks and suits. And I just loved her vibe. And when she said you had a big influence on her, I thought I’d really like to have this conversation with Jenny.

And I know you have just a whole lot of experience in coaching, in leadership programs and facilitating those. And you have a company called drum. And I know in 2017 you took a really big turn with your company. And I think that’s where I’d like to start a conversation. What did you do in 2017? And tell us why you did it with your leadership company.

Ginny: been running, what, designing, developing, delivering leadership development programs. And I’m a really good facilitator, and I have really good ideas, and I have really great experience. And they weren’t working. And it wasn’t just me, I could just see it across The [00:03:00] promise did not seem to be delivered on and I spoke to a few people and they would fly executives in from all over the world.

They would put them up in hotels. They would do a two or three day development program. They would have coaching bolted on and hundreds of thousands of pounds and six months later. One particular source I spoke to where they’d done this, he could not point to a single change. And six months later, the materials are gathering dust somewhere.

It’s not really mentioned again. The organization doesn’t really know how to hold the development or the changes that were done. The individuals who took part in the program, they might have tried a couple of the things that they came off the workshop feeling inspired by. Thank you. But quickly getting knocked back by the system or it didn’t work so well.

And then the everyday workload piles in. And I felt I was part of that and I didn’t want to be part of that. So we stopped running traditional [00:04:00] leadership development programs. Now I just want to be completely clear. I think there are a lot of programs that are really, really good. So it’s not, so I want to be really clear about that.

This is not a, Oh my God, they’re all terrible. It is. Be incredibly aware of what you’re participating in and what it will take to get the change that as an organization you say you want. And I’ve been in coaching in the UK pretty much since inception, since 1998. And I know that the people involved in this industry are good people, are committed people, are credentialed people who we really make an effort to understand what you’re doing.

inspires change, but something has just gone wrong at some point. So in that incident, I mentioned the company that had spent all the money, the person who signed it off, they’re not going to go I don’t think this has worked. That 200 brand I signed off on sorry. They’re not going to say that. The coach isn’t going to say it.

They’ve [00:05:00] got to put food on the table and they’ll be able to point to a happy sheet or to something that’s worked well and they’ll have done some good work and even if they can point to something even much more rigorous, they’re not with the client in the organisation. They can’t see what’s actually happening.

And then the person who participated in the programme is not going to say it didn’t work because they’re going to look like they’re not a team player or they’re not trying or they didn’t step up enough. 2017, we stopped running leadership development programs and started to look at how to create spaces for people to choose to be involved with them, to choose to be connected and to really access the resourcefulness of each other rather than having to subscribe to a model.

Or a structure or a particular prescribed approach, this five steps, that three steps, this 10 point model. And we stepped right out of that. And sometimes when I’m doing the work, I look at my skimpy facilitation notes and I [00:06:00] feel really insecure. I want that 9 o’clock tea and coffee, 9, 10 intros, 9, 20, but we don’t have, we don’t have that.

And I think what I can point to is that I mean, I can always feel a tiny bit of emotion when I say this, but I worked with wonderful people pre 2017. I mean, really wonderful people. But I’m not really connected with them anymore. Every single person who’s been through our drum doors since 2017 I could ring up and have a chat with, or I feel we have this clear relationship with.

I’m not the facilitation at the front of the room. And you mentioned wonderful Blair, Punxsuit. She and I have done a lot of facilitation together and we spend a lot of time talking about how do we get away from being the thing people resist at the front of the room.

DRUM we’ve done that. And so I’m free to have these really fruitful, delightful relationships with people that have endured for years, actually.

So what’s that? Four years, seven years. So I think that speaks to the difference in The [00:07:00] approach and the environment that is created between all of us.

Carolyn: Totally. I mean, oh, there’s so many, there’s so many places we could go with this. You know, this was obviously pre pandemic pre 2020, which, you know, I think you were really onto something back then in 2017 and kudos to you for stepping into that. And, what you’re doing in essence is you are trying to change your impact. a big system that was built to create efficiency and productivity and less built around emergent connection and learning and tapping into the resources in the room. Would you agree?

Ginny: Yes. I, and I have enormous compassion. There is no judgment in what I’m going to say next. But when leaders say they want their teams to step up, they have no idea what that actually means. And often what they unconsciously mean in my experience is, I’d [00:08:00] like them to step up in the way that I want them to step up and say the things I want them to say and say the things that are gonna make me feel good.

They tend not to mean, I don’t want them to be awkward, in the meeting room, or I don’t want them to come up with stuff that makes me feel insecure, or I don’t want them to appear better than me, or whatever it happens to be. So even the development that gets brought within a sort of unconscious expectations of a certain conformity.

And leaders who are able to become a learner with their people, that’s where the magic really happens. And so that’s what I, So what, yeah, so anyway, I forgot what I was talking about, but that’s the piece where the leader becomes the learner with their people, where the hierarchy gets collapsed.

That’s when you see things happening. And in a traditional leadership development program where there isn’t any other space for that’s very difficult.

Carolyn: Right? Right? And so I’m with you. you know, I started my business in 2016 after 17 years in, you know, a big machine wonderful people, wonderful learning. And so I, again, I want to echo what you were saying. I’m not saying that [00:09:00] all those things are bad. What I am interested is in having more conversations with people like you to help us evolve.

How we’re learning, how we’re growing, how we’re leading. And I don’t think that we create enough spaces. Like it sounds like you create a drum that I’m learning to create in my own work that I position as being trauma informed or somatic, like based in somatics in our body. I think this is really where we need to bring more work so that it can balance out, you know, some of these other more intellectual programs that we’re I’m curious. I’m curious what it was like for you in 2018 or 18 and 19. Like how did that transition go for you? How did you find clients that were able to meet you where you were at and wanted to go?

Ginny: As with much of the way I work there are things that happen in the moment, which helped me crystallize what I was thinking. So I was asked by a global organization to come and do some leadership development. And [00:10:00] when you’re an independent consultant, that’s a kind of manna from heaven moment. And I said, do you know what?

No, that’s not my bag. And I, as the words come out of my mouth, there was another part of me going, Shut up! Shut up! Just say yes! But it was, clearly the moment was there, and the words were coming out, and he was like, Oh, okay, well we might have something. And, I didn’t think anything more of it, and then a month later he called me back, And that, I’d already done a lot of the thinking and actually I’d already been running drum like stuff beforehand.

But the crystallization was in the moment where I turned down what was really an enormous piece of work. 

Something else, but they let me come and play in their company.

Carolyn: Why did he call you back?

Ginny: because he wanted me to come and look at the meeting culture in their organization. He wanted me to come and see what was going on and give him some thoughts and some [00:11:00] ideas.

So it was almost like a off the record type of piece of work because the thing you’re talking about this and you said less intellectual work before I was reading something the other day, it’s a program and I’m just going to read out a couple of the pieces from it.

It’s an agile leadership program says transfer, transform your mindset and capabilities, your organization. And then it says all the things it’s going to teach you to do. You’re going to empower self directed teams. You’re going to apply agile approach to leading teams organization. You’re going to understand the impact of customer centric business design.

You’re going to develop leadership skills and the list goes on. That’s over three days. That’s over three days. Did you get that whole list?

Carolyn: Yeah.

Ginny: Did you? Yeah. Did you get that? So that’s over three Yep. now. An organization at this stage would rather buy that program than a piece of paper from DRUM that says, we’ll help your leaders think well together.

Carolyn: Yep.

Ginny: They want that list, even though it is completely unsustainable, completely unattainable.

It’s over three days. There isn’t zero. There is zero chance people will be able to do all that at the end of three [00:12:00] days. I mean, you know, I’m not a rocket scientist, but I do know I’ve been coached for 26 years. So there is zero chance that’s going to happen. However, that program gets sold out. And so people buy the dream rather than let’s explore what we’ve got. And that is a shift that organizations are finding really difficult to make. We’ve come a long way from leaders not wanting to ask people how they’re feeling because they’re terrified that they might burst into tears or something.

We’ve come a long way from that. But in terms of creating space inside organizations for people just to put down their load of leadership and go and to be able to say what it’s really like, sometimes when we’re working in spaces, the hairs stand up on the back of my arms. In fact, they’re doing it when I talk about it, when people express to each other what’s really going on.

And that’s because there’s two myths. One is that people will only talk openly to their coaches. And they’re not cut or torn to anyone else. And that if they talk to anyone else inside their organisers, they will be [00:13:00] judged. Well, that’s completely untrue. And in fact, it deepens the quality of relationships.

But I don’t want to promise this stuff. I want to say, hold the space.

A skilled space. I mean, there’s no point just hanging out together and having a cup of tea. It’s got to be a skilled space.

But actually, so when you said your question was something about, you know, making the transitions and organizations.

I had people who took what for them was a real risk where they were happy to see how it unfolded. But in terms of traditional purchase order procurement departments, they want to see that list. I just read you.

So unless I can clocked some cockamamie list of shit promises on it. It continues to be quite a big ask.

Carolyn: so clearly, , you said you’ve been doing this work since, you know, 1998 or 99. So you clearly had a client list of people that trusted you and said, yep, you know what, come on in. We want to try this out. You know, one of the statements that you said around [00:14:00] holding space and being skilled at it.

I think that’s a term and a skillset that will continue to be valued as more people like you and I, and other great facilitators who are demonstrating. That ability to hold space, to do it skillfully and to allow things to emerge. And so what have you done since 2017 to appease the list and the sort of requirements of the systems, but also creating a bit of opportunity to allow this emergent space holding environment to unfold.

Ginny: Well, the system is a multi headed beast. So I wouldn’t tell you that I’ve made massive headway in that. There are pockets I would not hire a leader now unless they either could already do it or felt it was a priority to learn how to hold space. 

Carolyn: Wow. 

Ginny: that whole space, it sounds like a [00:15:00] bit jargonistic and I haven’t really come up with anything better, but I really couldn’t give a toss about somebody.

You said you came from Big Pharma. I mean, I’ve had quite a lot of Big Pharma clients. I’ve seen their CVs. They’re really impressive.

Carolyn: Yes,

they are. 

Ginny: So, you know, yeah, great. You’ve got all that. You’ve done all those, you know, you’ve taken all those trials to probably, you know, you’ve well done. Great.

Carolyn: Yep.

Ginny: What is your capacity to hold space, to check your ego at the door? How can you really bring all the voices in the room without going, David, what do you think? Just because poor David hasn’t spoken for 10 minutes. And now he’s like, Oh shit. Well, you get that genuine participation and collaboration. What is your skill at doing that?

Where is your heart in that? What is your mindset? That’s all I would interview for. Or let’s say, that’s what I would interview for as a priority. And I, okay. Say that the percentage of people who are able to do that is pretty small. And hopefully the percentage of people who want to learn to do that is much higher.

So in the DRUM process, everything we do has to be replicable by the people who participate. We [00:16:00] cannot do any cool master certified coach shit that they can’t replicate.

Carolyn: Right.

Ginny: So this means that we’re not trying to turn people into sort of the arch deacons of holding space or anything like that. We are role modeling everything we do.

And. Stuff leaks virally into the way they work. We didn’t know that was going to happen. But that’s really important. And sometimes when coaches are leading drums for the first time, , they want to send out emails to the group going, here’s what I noticed in the dynamics that you might be interested to look at.

Or here’s what I saw right now. Don’t do that! Don’t do that! Because we’re not coaching them. We’re modeling holding space and we’re moving our chair closer and closer to the door. So by session six we are gone because the other thing that has happened in the development industry is we’ve become a sort of collusive beast, a codependent beast.

Carolyn: Yes.

Ginny: And when I went to coach school, they told us to coach ourselves out of a job as quickly as possible and that was a sign of success. [00:17:00] with companies are needing external consultants, external models, external this, external that, for years and years. Or their departments, rather than focusing on how can we grow from within, how can we have this culture of self sustainability, even if we’re a traditional organization.

But they don’t, and that’s a really important part of what we do. Sorry,

Carolyn: is so prevalent in so many types of relationships that we have in and out of work. So that’s not surprising. And I’m with you. The shorter time I can spend with a client the better. And , we have to understand and check our own egos because to your point, say no to a big client or letting a client go, helping them realize that sort of potential codependent relationship they have just feels so against us.

What so many other people do. So I just want to recognize that, you know, it’s hard to go against that. I had a real moment, Jenny, when you were talking about how you would [00:18:00] interview for a leader today and that this notion of holding space is a really important skill set. You know, I was told, especially near the end of my career in big pharma, And I quote Carolyn, we don’t really understand what it is that you are so good at.

There’s something about it that is just, we don’t understand. It’s really good. You’re fabulous with people. But we don’t want you to do that anymore. We need you to be more strategic. you have just put words around it. I know what the magic was. Thank you. I could hold space for people. And I didn’t understand that word then.

I am understanding it more and more now. And like you, sometimes I think, Oh, it’s a little woo woo. But that’s really what we need to learn to do as leaders is how do we hold space? Because I’m sure you’ve heard lots of leaders say, I know I don’t have all the answers. Great. We can say that up here.

[00:19:00] Holding space to me is an embodied practice of allowing other bodies, other hearts and other minds into an energy field. that we can truly co create. And so I just want to thank you for that. And how do we get this skill set of holding space? How do we help more leaders, more organizations really value that?

From my perspective here in North America, I think that door is opening. The receptivity is definitely opening. So can you tell us more about how more leaders can embrace it and maybe get into like, what is drum? tell us a little bit more about or your approach, maybe not methodology, but your approach.

, 

Ginny: So,

the other thing. Is that, Wonderful books, wonderful ideas, wonderful approaches. You and I going, yeah, learn to hold space. And that’s what I would interview for. I mean, how the heck is a leader supposed to do that?

Sometimes when I look at what leaders are supposed to do, I think, well, they should be [00:20:00] wearing their underpants on the outside because they need to be superhuman to be able to do it. So, so the good enough thing I think is really important. So a bridge between academia or a bridge between the ideas and their everyday life, I think is really important.

that’s when I say when we’re talking inside DRUM about not doing anything too fancy. That I, who have been coaching for 26 years, find comes really easily to me. I take back the power from the group when I start sort of, you know, being amazingly coach like. It’s got to remain very grounded in people’s every day.

So, for me, and this is the way I like to learn, so I suppose this is how I’ve devised it, but DRUM is a highly visceral experience. So one of the things that people do is they will have a colleague inside, So you’ve got six colleagues. Similar seniority from across the same organization or different, but let’s just take this one the same.

They have no reporting lines and no competition between them. And what they will do [00:21:00] is they will learn what genuine support and resourcefulness is through a kind of coach approach in the group. We will do reflection work. They will to have generative conversations with each other.

So it’s the way in which they work together. They decide what they talk about. They discover really quickly that when a colleague talks about a problem, their desire to fix and solve that is overwhelming. They discover really quickly quite how useless that is. And they don’t discover it because I tell them.

They see what doesn’t work and what works. And so very quickly they understand. Now, I don’t do anything fancy, but I’m really rigorous about a halter space. Rigor or strictness is really unsexy these days. But halting the frame is really important because they have to be able to do it. It’s a little bit like teaching somebody to drive.

They’ve got to have the basics. After they’ve passed the test, they can go off and do what the heck they like. But there are some basics they would not jettison. So [00:22:00] if people are a bit soft around the coaching or they’re a bit too nice or they pull back I will stop the process in the group and go, okay, you know, what are we thinking and what’s going on here?

Or I’ll say to somebody, that is a great solution, but leave it till the end, that’s when we’re going to be coming up with that. So people start to see. What’s going on for somebody in an organization? The conversations are so real. And I know the answer to this, and this is probably my ego, but occasionally when they’ve just had this amazing open conversation with each other, which has really gone places they weren’t expecting, I then say something like where else in the organization are you having conversations like this?

And I know the answer is nowhere, but I just have to slightly hammer it home. So learning to hold space I think is something you almost have to experience before you can learn to do it. I think that’s how you learn is having somebody hold space [00:23:00] for you and you experience how trusting it feels, how safe it feels.

Safe without being kind of cotton woolly safe. You still have to take responsibility for what you bring to the space. And that’s really important. Thanks. So it’s not a, it’s not a sort of cushion people up with a duvet sort of safety, but it is creating a space where people are able to decide and think what they want to bring.

And it’s because of their experience. And you talked about earlier, everything can be so cerebral from the head up. And I really relate to that. I’ve been like, like that for a long part of my life. And getting into the body and getting into the vibration. That’s what happens. We don’t do body exercises or meditation exercises or anything like that, but that is, I think what happens. 

Carolyn: How did you call it drum?

Ginny: we had a working name of pod, but of course that was becoming ubiquitous. Everything was a pod. And I said to a colleague of mine, we’ve got to change the name. And it was actually, it was a Friday afternoon and we were bouncing around [00:24:00] ideas and drum came up really naturally because it’s a vessel.

So that exists in every single culture, and it’s a holding space, you can have it from an oil drum, to a vase, to a glass, it’s a holding space and This idea of a vessel of being a holding space for people to come and think together and not to have what they think about controlled. Whenever I do a talk with a group now, I won’t do keynote speaking.

I do, I present ideas. I’m doing one tomorrow. I present ideas and then everybody in the session, they get to talk about what thinking has been provoked by those ideas.

Carolyn: Wow.

Ginny: say, so how would you use these ideas in your organization? Because it’s highly directive and actually maybe they even hated the ideas, but they will have been provoked in some way.

So it’s actually helping people think well together within the business structure. So yeah, I’m not sure if I answered your question, but

Carolyn: Oh no, [00:25:00] you did. You did. It’s it’s just, it’s so brilliant. The name behind it, the energy the learning. It’s just, it’s such an embodied way of being in growth.

Ginny: also it’s what we do as kids. And latterly. Somebody pointed out to me that the drum is the instrument at the back of the band and it often sets the beat and it often holds the whole thing together. So, and it’s the Charlie Watts to the Mick Jagger. And I think I used to be Mick Jagger in my work. I mean, I remember some terrible crystallizing moment where somebody said, I wonder what it’s like to be facilitated by you.

And my instant thought was, Oh my God, it’s a bit of a nightmare for two thirds of the room, there’ll be a third of the room that love me fabulous for the other two thirds, because I’m using my energy, my charisma, my seduction, all of those things. And that was not in service of the work I was doing.

So the band, the drummer at the back. And then it’s off and it holds it all together. But it’s a [00:26:00] vessel. Drum is a vessel and that’s why it’s called drum.

Carolyn: So where do you see the next 10 years of leadership heading?

Ginny: Okay, well, this is a massive question.

Carolyn: It is. Do we need to bite, like pull it back into some smaller

Ginny: \ where I see it going and where I want it to go probably are two different things.

Carolyn: Let’s do, let’s hear both. Where do you want it to go?

Ginny: Where I want it to go is I want the hierarchical,

The kind of false god hierarchical metaphorical, they’ve got the parking space right out the front because they’re the most important person in the company.

girlfriend of mine’s just been on a book tour to Japan, and she said when the Japanese are talking to each other, they don’t say, , I think blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And like, take that thought as my thought, because I’m having the thought, I accept that I’m having the thought because we’re in conversation. That it is partly because of you as well, that I am having this thought or it is, you know, between the two of us has created that thought in my head. [00:27:00] So whilst we have the Chief Executive is the richest and most important person at the top, And the junior person in the call center is kind of at the bottom while we have this sort of stacked hierarchy.

It’s very hard for the person at the top to really be able to hear the ideas of the junior person. It’s really hard for the junior person to speak up. I can’t bear that expression, you know, speak up more, step up more. Well, it’s really hard in our systems. So where I want it to go is well I won’t use immersal basic income, so we don’t actually need to work, we want to work.

So that’s one of the things, but where there can be a leader’s doing a job, the junior person’s doing a job the commercial director’s doing a job, everyone knows they’re doing a job and nobody’s job is better or worse than anybody else’s.

That’s where I’d really like to see things. And so, yeah.

That’s where I’d like to see it.

Carolyn: So if that is utopia and I’m right there with you, so we’ll both hold those beautiful visions. Because if we’re going to go somewhere, we need to, if we’re going to go anywhere, we need to know where, what it could look like. Where do you think we’re going to head? What’s going to get in our [00:28:00] way?

Ginny: So I don’t know whether you’re familiar with the ideas of open systems and closed systems.

Carolyn: Yeah. But why don’t you just share a little bit for the rest

Ginny: Okay. So, so I’m going to mangle it, but this is here, what, this is , where I go with this round group dynamics. Closed system doesn’t let in or out ideas, stimulus, people, freshness. It’s kind of locked in and an open system. Ideas will come into that system. The system will think about them.

They’ll do something with them and something will be will come out the other side. So there’s a flow.

Carolyn: Right.

Ginny: As an independent small business, I feel like organizations are more closed now as a result of the pandemic. To get to talk to people, you used to be able to call head office or, you know, and there was much more flow of ideas.

And I discuss this with my friends and my colleagues. Everything feels closed. The levels of fear feel really high people and some of the almost reversion to even more traditional development stuff, which I kind of thought people have, is like, it’s really basic 1 0 1. So being able to have conversations, being able to discuss ideas the 2D element of things has really closed down systems.

And I think this is really bad news for leaders and. I’ve had more [00:29:00] leaders burst into tears in Zoom sessions in the last three years than I have in the whole of my career. The, Back to back thing, and for some it’s a badge of honour, but for most people they’re in, they’re just wrapped in this sort of torture instrument of work.

It’s the rise of addiction, I see that as well. People come off particularly if they live alone, they come off calls at ten, ten o’clock at night, haven’t been on since seven. You know, and they’re absolutely shattered, so it’s a, you know, bag of potato chips and a bottle of wine they’re not going to cook for themselves.

And suddenly they’re in this cycle. eating really badly, work addiction this globalization. So I think it’s really important to let in those of us who are at the edge of systems, purposefully at the edge of systems, to say, come and share your ideas. What’s going on? These companies don’t have forums or places where they say, can we just think about this and think about what’s going on?

Because it doesn’t have the five point plan or whatever it happens to be. So I feel almost with the people [00:30:00] who have the, we’re up on the balcony looking down. Now, I know that, you know, it’s hard work on the dance floor sometimes, and then we’re not in the cut and thrust, but it’s precisely because we’re not in the cut and thrust that we have something to offer.

Carolyn: exactly,

Ginny: and that’s, and that, and those receptors, I feel, are being closed down 

in a way that, I didn’t experience before and that’s something I think has really has to be watched. And I think we, you know, when you said to me, what’s the future of leadership? You know, I was at a talk from a Palestinian refugee camp guy on Thursday night.

There’s some going to something about race next week. There’s the stuff going on in the American presidential elections. And the ether is frightening.

Carolyn: yep,

Ginny: And so it’s not surprising that our organizational systems are reflecting that.

Carolyn: right,

Ginny: think the trick for leadership and for organizations is for organizations to really support leaders, to feel safer, to take these perceived risks in holding space, [00:31:00] in having thinking spaces.

The drum sessions are three hours long. I have hilarious testimonials where people go, Oh my God, when I saw three hours in my diary, I freaked out. Thank you.

Carolyn: yep,

Ginny: Well, I’m not going to be able to look at my emails for three hours. I’m not going to, and then they come in and they say things like, well, that feels like I just did a three hour yoga session, which would be gossip for me, but apparently they like, you know, but that’s that nurturing thing.

not about having ping pong tables and beanbags, everything. It’s deeper than that. And there are, we can do this all together, but we have to be let in.

Carolyn: And so, you know, the drum, you don’t call them drum circles. I want to make sure I’m saying, or do you call them drum circles or drum

Ginny: I don’t actually, but I mean, I don’t mind if people do, I just call them drums.

Carolyn: Yeah. Well, and I think I want to be cautious cause I feel like that might be a little bit of a cultural appropriation calling them drum circles. 

So these drums give the space, we learn how to hold space. And what I’m hearing you say is the more we can have drums or Spaces like that, the more the system will open itself back up, we’ll have more of a, an open loop system as opposed to this closed loop system, [00:32:00] because the fear, the scarcity, everything is causing us to constrict and be in fear.

 wow. Ginny, we could talk for a lot longer, but I’m recognizing where I would probably want to take things. It would be like another hour and a half or two. So maybe we’ll have you on another episode at some point in time. I’d like to just ask you when, you know, one sort of closing question, how could somebody listening right now, who is inspired by what you’re sharing and this concept of holding space, what are three things that they could reflect on or start to think about? And perhaps even do that can get them one step closer to that. element of creating space with their colleagues.

Ginny: Okay, three things. So,  they could,

 well, they could learn some coaching skills.

Carolyn:  How did they do that? 

Ginny: what I always say to people is become an acquirer of questions. So the questions are your, I mean, for coaches, there are sort of my [00:33:00] precious. There are, I hear a good question. I write it down and I love it.

the only materials we have in DRUM is one page of questions. So if you want to learn to hold space in the moments where you feel you want to state something or say something, ask a question that opens somebody else up. How did you get to that way of thinking? Oh, that’s interesting. Tell me what’s, you know, what’s pushed that thought forward.

Or how might we do that? I’m thinking in 20 years time, whenever, we won’t be calling it a coach approach, we’ll be calling it a human approach. But yes go questions. Number two work on your stuff. You know, you talk about trauma.

Take responsibility. Because my trauma meets your trauma, and then we have a party, and we’re not really talking about the things we need to talk about. So, as a leader, just say, yeah, I’m really going to be really committed. And it isn’t necessarily a coach. It might be a therapist. Or it might be a circle you need to get in, outside of work.

I’ve got a client and every year, twice a year, he joins men’s walking circle up in the Peak District and he finds that really nurtures [00:34:00] him. And the third thing I do is I would really connect with other leaders and have the conversations I want to have with them. you don’t even need to know them very well.

Just somebody you met sometime, you had a good vibe with, or you’d love to get to know, but if you rang up and went, this may sound a bit weird, but I’d really love to spend some more time with you and share ideas around leadership. I’d be amazed if they went, what? No, on your bike. We love to be asked and so see people.

So gather some questions. If anyone wants to email me, I can send them this one page thing I talked about. Gather some questions. Start thinking, gosh, I have, you know, maybe I need to do some work for myself with the circular therapy, a nurturing space and then whatever I said the third one was, which I suddenly forgotten.

Carolyn: Well, the third one was to reach out to somebody outside of your own

Ginny: Yeah. Don’t don’t hang out on your own with your 3am thoughts. You know, it’s the, and when people say, Oh, how’d you get people to open up and drum? I don’t, I ask one [00:35:00] question. I say, what drew you to accept the invitation to this drum? And people out. It comes. We want to connect. We want to be together. So that’s really important.

Grow your gang.

Carolyn: Wow. Ginny, thank you so much for coming on the show. So grateful. Where could our listeners and viewers find you?

Ginny: You go to leader drums. com. It’s all there.

Carolyn: All right. And we’ll make sure that we include that in the link. Now, before we close off, I always ask the guests three questions that are part of my evolve approach to leadership. And they really sort of fall into everything that we’ve talked about today. So I, are you game for hearing those three questions and playing along?

Ginny: Yes.

Carolyn: the first one’s about self awareness. As you said, that was the sort of second suggestion that you gave the audience. I’m with you. I think self awareness is a journey, not a destination. Although I used to think it was a destination and learned pretty quickly. There’s a lot more to [00:36:00] that path.

So is there a story or an anecdote that. That you want to share that really took your awareness about yourself from maybe here to like here.

Ginny: Yeah. So, I did some I did some development work on psychodynamic and systemic approaches to organizations, and I thought I was just going to learn some stuff about systems. I discovered that how I discovered how I showed up in groups was 

sorry. When I went on a group, I thought it was really important to get to know people have a bit of a time, why are you here and what’s going on?

And when they didn’t do that, I complained to the course participant, participant, you know, because I said, you know, it’s really we’re not getting to know each other. And he was like, well, Ginny, that’s your need, everyone else’s need. And I was like, what? Well, surely, you know, and what I discovered is that when I show up in groups, I really imprint.

how I think the group should be, how I think they should show up. And as we went through the process in fact, it was time and time again, I kept being [00:37:00] shown by the rest of the group, we don’t want the way you want the group to run. And I really discovered that people do what they want rather than what you think they want to do.

And I’d have times where I would feel rejected. I would feel traumatized and they would be really significantly deep emotions and I would blame the group for it. And what I didn’t know is that I was pushing my expectations and my trauma onto the group. And in fact, I had to take a much greater responsibility for how I showed up in the space.

And once I was able to do that, it completely changed my experience of being in groups and the, yeah. So, I mean, yeah it doesn’t really hold together as a one off, but I think that it’s Me just thinking, well isn’t that the way people like to behave, and then being challenged on that, and then being challenged repeatedly over several months and years to reflect on that was quite something on Israel’s standard.

Even though I hated it, and I complained about it. It was.

Carolyn: Growth and growth never usually feels good inside at the beginning anyway. And I’m going to [00:38:00] guess that the people in your groups had a very different experience too, probably. Opened up more, as you were saying.

Ginny: Well yeah, I mean, I don’t know, but it was this, we did loads around projection and transference and you know, it was kind of, but if I hadn’t put myself forward to be in that space, you know, back to my second point about doing the work is don’t do something ’cause you think it’s a good idea. Do something ’cause you’re interested.

I was a bit interested. I had no idea, was signing up for a visceral, traumatic experience, which was gonna come out good at the end.

Carolyn: Yep. Yep. Oh that’s how I found my way into trauma informed leadership. I just followed a little thread of something that happened to me and somebody said a word and I thought, Oh, so yeah, excellent point. So second question is around our ability to self regulate. And so often people will have rituals or cues that help them, you know, bring themselves back into a more regulated state where they don’t feel as activated or in a fight [00:39:00] or flight situation.

Or maybe they’re trying to bring themselves back into a place of calm. So curious if you could share with us, what is a ritual or something that you do to help you regulate?

Ginny: Well, there’s daily practice, and when I don’t do it on the days I notice I have a different type of day. So I have a daily practice I do in the morning. At six o’clock in the morning I’m outside. I live in an area, what they call in the UK, an area of outstanding natural beauty. And I’m out there greeting the morning.

And if it’s warm enough I’ll journal outside and I’ll meditate. So that’s every morning. And when people say every morning, yeah, there are mornings where it doesn’t happen. So absolutely. And I’ll have a different place in terms of in the moment. I do two things or three things. One is I react really badly and sulk.

So that’s, it doesn’t go well. So I fake a smile. Yeah. The other I do is I actually tell people what the reaction I’m having. I go, I just noticed what’s happened. And I share it. [00:40:00] And then I say, so there must be something interesting that’s going to come here. So I’ll say, I noticed I’m having a really negative reaction to the directions conversations going.

And to me, that probably means I need to pay more attention. So it kind of takes the sting out of it and I own it in the group. And I have found that to be really incredible. And it was a meeting I was in once where the, this happened, I got triggered. I started sulking and I put a fake smile on my face. I thought I’ve only got eight more minutes.

And we’ve got to the top of the hour and then I suddenly went oh shit This is a two hour meeting not a one hour meeting and I couldn’t fake it for another hour I confessed, I said, I’ve just been really triggered and we had the most amazing conversation. There’s no way the conversation would go that way if I kind of held my sulk.

So I do that. And the other thing I do is I think about what am I here to support happening? So yeah, I do breathing. I’ll sometimes break the chair. You know, there are some bodily things I do, but I I do start, do refocus myself on what are we here [00:41:00] to do? And how can I now serve in this moment, rather than feeling pissed off about what’s happened or have been triggered.

We get triggered all the time. It doesn’t matter how brilliant we are. It’s what we do after the trigger that’s important. And I’ve got a lot better at that.

Carolyn: Oh, that’s brilliant. That’s brilliant. Just to give it space, right? Yeah. So last question, lots of pressure on you here. Just kidding. Cause you’re in my favorite musical place of the world, which is the UK. So this question is around co regulation and I find music is a, it’s just an incredible way to feel in connection with other people.

Without having to speak to them necessarily. So what is a song or genre of music that helps you feel connected to something bigger than yourself?

Ginny: I’ve just I’m gonna drop this now and you’re gonna want to talk to me in a whole nother podcast, but I’ve just completed a modern medicine woman practitioner training

Carolyn: Oh, yes. I do want to talk to you more about that.

Ginny: I thought so. And the, there’s the mo, there’s the most beautiful song called The [00:42:00] Way Nose. And I find myself, when I’m walking around singing, I’m not a singer, I’ve got a reedy little voice. But because it’s connected to this incredibly nurturing and extraordinary experience I had in this sacred feminine space with these incredibly powerful modern women, I mean, we had hysterics as well.

I nearly set fire to the light with my sage burning with their flammable raincoat. But so that’s, so that’s that, that’s really beautiful. That deeply ceremonial music I really love. And then really anything by Wham! is obviously a really big deal. Blondie, The Pretenders, all of that I absolutely love.

And we have 

Carolyn: what’s your favorite, favorite Wham song or favorite George Michael? We’ll extend it into George Michael or Wham.

Ginny: Well, obviously I love wham rap. Edge of heaven. Last place. I mean, all of them, I tell you what it is. And if anyone hasn’t seen it on Netflix, the wham documentary, if I ever went on desert Island discs, I would choose such uncool songs because it’s what it evokes [00:43:00] what you remember. It’s so uncomfortable. It’s so clean. It’s so innocent.

And it’s kind of so cheesy. I love cheesy music. I listen to some cool stuff as well. My husband has a cool music collection, but it’s really cheap. So, yes, I think I think that, and I think the way knows is really beautiful and really lifts your heart and I’ll give you the the title of the song so you can put it in the link.

Carolyn: Beautiful. Well, Ginny, thank you so much. Beyond Wham, I just you know, we started off on Wham. We’re going to end on Wham. So that’s wonderful in and of itself. But thank you so much just for your insights and all the work that you do, I really hope that our listeners are taking something, a way that will help them navigate through these chaotic waters that we all seem to be in these days.

Thanks so much. Okay. When I first started studying organizational culture, I learned of the work of Ed Schein, and [00:44:00] he’s called the grandfather of organizational culture. He passed away last year, maybe the year before, but his work really influenced how we view organizational culture and leadership. And I heard him speak one time just a few years ago, and he said, there was one thing that we could do to change our organizations.

It would be to change how we set up meetings and how we meet. He’s like 90 percent of the problems could be solved if we learned how to meet better. And this conversation with Ginny today, I think really aligns with what Ed was saying a few years ago.  I hope that you have. Gleaned some insight from Ginny’s work and from drums and from this concept of holding space.

 And when we look at meetings that we have in our workplaces, I think there’s a space for some, not all of these meetings to have a bit more space. For space, if you know what I mean. Thank you so much for listening for tuning into this podcast. Would really [00:45:00] appreciate it if you could like, and subscribe to the podcast, feel free to share it with a friend as well. And if you want to see more about the work that I do, you can find me at carolynswora.com. We’ll see you soon.