The Intersection Between Leadership, Gender and Embodiment with Lorri Sulpizio

Lorri: When we think about where we go wrong, often in life with relationships in the business world or personal life, it’s when we get hooked by an experience or something that happens and we get a negative and emotion to it, you know, that negative feeling, I, then we get angry, we get resentful, we get hurt.

You know, our ego feels like it’s been threatened. And so then we react. And we react in not the best ways, you know, and in the business world is when you can’t take feedback. You snap at your employees, whatever it is. And if we could just learn in that moment to get in touch with ourself to say, there it is, that’s the feeling I’m about to, you know, snap.

But instead I’m going to go outside, I’m going to take a walk, I’m going to feel the sun warm my face. I’m going to do some breathing. I’m going to, some people say they, Do a pushup. I mean, whatever it is, just stop yourself from that negative action. You know, we’d be so much better off and the body can be a tool to help us re regulate, 

Carolyn: Today’s guest on the podcast is Dr. Lori Silpizio. Now when I. Outline her bio to you momentarily. You’ll see why she’s such a great fit. Laurie brings this amazing combination of a sport background, a psychology background, a PhD in leadership, specializing in gender dynamics as well, such a fabulous combination of specialties.

Laurie and I, I think are going to have a really cool conversation about how we can leverage our. Body wisdom. As leaders in our corporate spaces. Now, let me tell you a little bit about Lori. Lori is the director of the Conscious Leadership Academy and the founder of the Center for Women’s Leadership at the University of San Diego.

Lori also is very interested and does work in the area of the impact of gender dynamics. And she uses group relations theory to understand team, effective team leadership. Also helping leaders to recognize the importance of authenticity and a strong sense of self sounds a lot like evolved principles as well.

Now, Lori is also a former college basketball coach, and she uses these lessons from her years in athletics. As an athlete and also as a coach to help leaders achieve their best self. Lori does have a PhD in leadership from the university of San Diego and MA in sports psychology from San Diego state university and a BA in English and women’s studies from Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo.

I had the pleasure of meeting Lori when we became certified dare to lead facilitators several years ago in San Antonio, Texas. And. Her list of, coaching credentials also can go on here as well. Needless to say, I’m really looking forward to this conversation with Laurie about leadership, about our identity, about our authenticity, and how we can deepen our insights about ourselves to help us be better leaders and ultimately create really strong team dynamics.

Hope you enjoy the show.

Hello, evolve listeners. I keep saying listeners, you might be watching. So hello, evolve community. I’m really excited to do another podcast for y’all. And this week we have Lori Silpizio coming to us from California.

Lori, hello and welcome.

Lorri: Hey, hey, how are you?

Carolyn: I’m doing well. How are you doing?

Lorri: I’m great, thanks.

Carolyn: I’m loving it. I was just telling you before we got started, everyone needs to know I’m loving your screen in the background.

Lorri: Thank you. I know. This is my pandemic solution to a messy office with a mirror and a closet that nobody wants to see. Yeah.

Carolyn: So Everyone. This is why I wanted to bring Laurie on the show. We met about four years ago. We both are certified, dare to lead facilitators. So we share a passion in bringing and helping leaders in our world. But there also is this other kind of cool connection, Laurie, that happened after. Training when we sort of did a few, I think, I think I might’ve reached out to you. Actually, there was something about your profile. I was like, Hey, Lori, do you want to have a conversation? And 

Lorri: Yeah, I feel like and then we just there was so much resonance. I think our kids, I mean, I think just the mother, the parent role we connected around the joys and struggles of that over the years. Can we both have kids? I think similar age, right? Our kind of young adult children and then and then just, I think doing the work The Dare to Lead work and how to bring that into our bigger work.

So I think there was just so much, I feel like if you weren’t in, if we weren’t far away, we’d be hanging out on 

on the, you know, on the weekly for 

sure. 

Carolyn: think so. Yeah, I think so. And you know, yes, we both have this integration with the dare to lead community. I know the other thing that brought us together was our interest was in the Enneagram.

And how do we get to better know ourselves?

So I know we had a bit of exploration there. Now, here’s why I’m bringing up the Enneagram is because when I started it. Exploring network and learning about myself. One of the things that was a big revelation for me was the fact that my body was a center of intelligence. For those for those of you who aren’t familiar with the Enneagram, really quick high level lesson. Our bodies have three centers of intelligence and within these three centers of intelligence are three other archetypes. Not going to say any much more around the Enneagram other than that today. But my training in that space. Like, as I said, was a revelation because I’m like, wait, the body has intelligence. What are you talking about? 

So Laurie, I know you’re, you’re, there’s a lot of things we’re going to talk about your expertise, but I know that you were based in high performance athletics before.

So that wasn’t a revelation to you necessarily that your body has all this wisdom.

Lorri: No, I mean, I was a college basketball coach for a very long time. Thought I would actually be doing that for most of my life. And that kind of took its turn. But, but you know, my daily, my, my task was to help. Kind of young adult women from 18 to, you know, 22 use their bodies to accomplish our goal, which was win basketball games.

And so part of the work, you know, preseason was how do we condition train stronger, faster, flexible, stay healed, stay healthy. I mean, it’s all, it was all the things and it was essentially all about the body and at that time. Integrating the mind was the progressive integration, you know, doing mindfulness.

My, my master’s is in sports psychology and so I, I always resonated with the mind impacts the body, you know, from an athlete perspective. Now, you know, kind of with my work in leadership, my PhD research in leadership, it was the other way around. It’s helping people realize. The body impacts the mind, right?

So there’s kind of this Interesting dichotomy depending on you know, the field and the way that you’re working. Yeah.

Carolyn: So I just realized we have another similarity. You lived yours out, but I almost went to get my masters of coaching years and years ago

that had I gone that path would have taken me to the Olympics as a coach. Yeah. Anyway, that’s a conversation for one

Lorri: Yeah. Yeah.

Carolyn: So This is really interesting.

There are a lot of similarities then between the field of sport performance and the field of cognitive performance, shall we say? Like, you know, work, work performance.

Lorri: Yeah. And I often tell people I was just in a kind of an advanced leadership team workshop and I told them I said, you know, there’s not a lot of difference between helping people on the court or the field or the, you know, conference room or classroom. I mean, it’s, it’s the similarities. I think are, are so much, and it’s really helped me.

I think it’s helped me, but, and, and I see often my leadership work through the lens of, of athletics and of, you know, sport and fitness. But I, I think there is a great integration and the body is a big part of that. You know, bringing the body into the leadership space, into the conference room, into a classroom, into a, you know, is, is I think in a manifestation of that, of that like really nice marriage.

Carolyn: now,

athletes get paid obviously cause we can see their body doing the work.

Lorri: Mm-hmm.

Carolyn: And I love, I love sports as well. And I always find the best athletes. You can also see them. integrating the brain, like their mind. And, you know, you’ll hear it through terms like they can see the play before it happens, or they’re setting each other up.

And you know, they see the past before it happens. So a great sports performance involves the mind, the body and the heart, meaning they can build good relationships. They’re there for the team. 

Let’s talk a little bit about performance in the meeting rooms all across North America. What centers of intelligence are we emphasizing most in those in those arenas, if you will,

Lorri: Yeah, I mean, I think. The unfortunate thing in those arenas is it’s still very much of what we would say above the neck, right? It’s in the head, you know, and it’s we value logic, analysis, cognition, thoughts, and I’m not saying that those things aren’t important, 100 percent they are, but when we don’t include Kind of the somatic felt sense when we don’t include our feelings when we don’t kind of pay attention And invite our physical like actual experience of how we’re feeling and I feel great.

I’m energetic. I slept well I don’t have a pain in my back or you know, then we are Missing, you know, the, the full integration of our human potential.

And I think what we see then is that we’ve noticed and COVID certainly highlighted this, and this is kind of extreme, but with quiet quitting and the great resume, I mean, people just realize like work stinks,

you know, like I don’t want to be here.

I don’t want to do this. I don’t want to sit in a car. and drive, you know, commute to work when I realized I can work from home and get up and take walks and be outside. I mean, all that was very embodied and somatic, right? And I don’t think we see it that way. So there’s that piece of it, and then there’s the piece of using the.

physical body as a tool or a cue to make better decisions, to connect, you know, sort of more deeply with others, to be more thoughtful and reflective. And when we prioritize logic, analysis, everything in the head, we lose a whole, like you said, center of intelligence that would help us. I think some of the challenges that we see over and over again, it’s like, when are we going to learn, 

Carolyn: Yeah. And so this is where my Enneagram training opened my eyes to it. And by no stretch, am I saying that school of thought is the only one that integrates this, this this concept of your body having wisdom. In fact, The more it’s kind of like when you buy a red car, you see a red car everywhere.

I’m seeing more and more examples of it.

That’s why I started this podcast. That’s why I wrote my book is realizing how disconnected I’ve been. Really is a matter of survival,

In this world to really stay up here.

Lorri: Yeah. Mm

Carolyn: So we’re going to talk a little bit then today about our body as a place of wisdom.

Lorri: hmm. 

Carolyn: And can we just start, we’re just going to start generically about your work as in the leadership space. How have you helped leaders? Bring this embodiment into their leadership and, and just, you know, if you have any anecdotes

or things that has that they’ve had revelations that they’ve had when they can be more embodied,

Lorri: Yeah. Great. So a couple of different ways. I think the, my, I would say sort of my. Initial gift to leaders and how I always start is working with self awareness and trying to find authenticity. And I think we do that by thinking about who we are in the world. And it’s not just knowing ourselves in terms of, you know, how we make decisions and how we think, but also again, how we feel, how we show up, the clothes we wear, how we present ourselves physically to the world, you know, what we do to regulate our.

You know, our nervous system, when we get frantic, how do we regulate stress? And so there’s this whole kind of depth and breadth to the process of becoming self aware that includes the mind, you know, the heart, the body, the gut, I mean, all the, all the parts. And so I, I always start there. I mean, I think I, I tell people, if you don’t want to start with self awareness, you’re going to need another, you know, find somebody else because I don’t think we can do good leadership without first, at least finding out if we’ve got this baseline of awareness around ourselves.

And that includes the body. And so how do we do that? You know, often we do something like a, you know, a body scan, right? Where you start at the feet and you work your way up just in kind of a quiet grounded place and you’re focusing on your breath, but just allowing your body to tell you what’s tight, what hurts, what aches, what feels strong,

you know? Go ahead. We’re going to say,

Carolyn: Are you a body type, Laurie?

Lorri: I’m an 

eight, I’m an eight, I’m an eight.

I am. And you know what,

Carolyn: here,

here’s what I find interesting.

I’m not a body type. And so when, before I became much more aware of all this stuff, when people would say a body skin, what was going on in my head was like. Okay, sure. I’ll do a body scan and I’m like having this visual picture of like a lightsaber going through me

and all that was going through my head is, am I doing this right?

Is

somebody like, is somebody going to come tell me

if I’m doing this right or

not? So I couldn’t even understand what the hell a body scan actually meant.

Lorri: Totally. I, so it’s so funny. So I, so then what we do, what I tried to do is start really slow and really guide people through it, you know, and, and help. And if, and even say, if you’re kind of lost in this notion of a laser running up and down your body, just right now, focus on the breath and what it feels like coming in your nostril and out your mouth.

Just take a moment and just feel, feel what that feels like

now, you know, just feel your neck. Because right, you know, feel your neck. What does it feel like? And most people do most, you know, have tension in neck and shoulders. So that’s a quick way to like, Oh, I see. Now go back to the breath. So there’s a guidance to this kind of work, right?

You think you can’t just tell people interesting. They don’t tell you about the Enneagram. I, I’m a eight through and through for any, you know, listeners and watching them, but I have a little bit of shame about being an eight.

Carolyn: We’re going to talk about that because

Lorri: They’re so You know what I mean? Like the shadow side of the eight, I feel like I know all types, you know, they’ve got their shadow and their light, the benefit.

But I’m like, I don’t like the shadow of the eight, but I can’t escape it. You know, I just,

Carolyn: I

Lorri: I can’t.

Carolyn: don’t like the shadow side of the two either. So, Hey, but you know, we do have a connection there. Anyway, maybe we’ll have

it, have you on for another conversation,

but 

Lorri: sure. For sure. Yeah. 

Carolyn: I just, I asked that because In our dare to lead work, that was again, another eye opener to me around the importance of integration. And, and I know there’s some exercises in that work where we have to pinpoint emotions.

I, I was like, what am I missing?

I like, I’m looking for around other people. So I guess that’s the first sort of piece about leadership that it sounds that you’ve been bringing into your programs for a while, given your training and that like you’ve been using very connected, it sounds like to your body and the signals or the cues in

your body. 

Lorri: absolutely. And I think the other part you mentioned emotions we do so well before we jump into strategy and culture change It’s self awareness the body awareness and then we move and evolve to emotions and this that notion of it helping people understand You know, the emotion part is that physical sensation and then the feeling that we say is sort of like how we interpret it, right?

So, so we could be in a line at, you know, Magic Mountain, at some theme park, looking up at this monster rollercoaster. You and I both have butterflies in our stomach. I’m scared to death and, and, you know, luckily I had all the kids. I always held the baby. I hate rollercoasters. I don’t want to go on them. I don’t like them.

I don’t want to bungee jump. You know, none of that. But so I’ve got this, you know, butterfly in my stomach and I’m scared to death. You’ve got butterflies in your stomach and you’re excited because you love roller coasters. Same feeling, same emotion, you know, somatic expression of these butterflies, but different interpretation in terms of how we’re bringing them to life in terms of the feeling that we have around that experience.

Right? So it’s helping people kind of get in touch with. You know, the butterflies in the stomach might mean something different. What does it mean for you? The sweaty palms, you know, what then does it mean for you and helping people learn to connect that physical somatic experience and understand what does this mean for me in this moment?

I’m going to say, thank you. No, thank you. I don’t want to ride that roller coaster. I’m going to speak in this meeting because the lump in my throat is telling me. I’m activated and I’m ready and I have something to say. So when we can learn then to listen to our bodies, the physical, you know, little twinges, you know, feelings reactions that our body’s having, it can be a really great tool to know, how do we need to show up at this moment?

You know, what do we need to do? 

Carolyn: this and had this gift? Like when did you realize that your body was having a conversation with you? Not through words, through these cues.

Lorri: Hmm. Gosh, good question. You know, I think what’s interesting, and this is going to take it, take this in a total different turn. So my body, right, we have our bodies. I noticed very young, so I’m, you know, LGBTQ. I noticed very young that as a, as a female, I was attracted to other females, right? So this is like young, young kid.

I also noticed that I didn’t love to present my body in the way that The world said women should present their body

and I didn’t have words for it, you know, 25 years ago We didn’t have non binary. We didn’t have gender fluid, but I was in touch with like, oh Here’s this physical body and I was athletic and I was but this body is you know And being athletic back then is like Oh Tom boy, you know like a boy and so I I kind of started to have this relationship with my body very young more because of my identity and having to reconcile with What does this even mean and why?

And why, you know, why does my body kind of find attraction to bodies that I’m told I’m not supposed to? And why does my body want to be enclosed? I walk into a, you know, a banana republic and I want to go to the men’s section. Like, what’s that about? Like, and so there was this interesting… I guess reconciliation of is my body betraying me?

You know, is my mind betraying me? Like what’s happening here? Because the way I want to show up in the world, I’m told is not right. It’s weird. It’s, you know, and so I think that started this. You know, curiosity, you know, and, and, and shame and all the things and trauma and all the things and sports was where I thrived and I felt comfortable and I felt at home and I could be, you know, it was okay to be aggressive and Assertive and strong in sport, right?

Even though you still were tomboyish. So, and sports very body focused and so I think, I think all of those things brought me to then kind of continue to be in touch with the body and what it can do and what it means and how to integrate it with the mind. And so, you know, personally, professionally as a high school athlete, college athlete, college coach

and so on.

Yeah.

Carolyn: I’m going to pick up from where we’re from there. So I was also called a tomboy.

I found solace on the court in the field.

I got, I got in trouble in grade two for beating up the boys. I got a

concussion because a boy tripped me because I was beating them, them. It was a game called butts up. I still remember his name. I will not say it here. I got sent to the office and I got in trouble. Three years later, I got in trouble again for chasing the boys and basically pinning them to the ground and telling them to leave the girls alone because they were playing kissing tag. Now, my experience was, was a bit different.

I, I felt lost.

I was attracted to males. I was called a tomboy and I was like, wait a second, but I’m not a boy. My name’s not Tom.

I’m a girl. I’ve got breasts. Like why is everyone calling me a tomboy?

And then the higher up I got was sport. And then I was, I was with a community of. are like of people who had different preferences, which

was fine.

But everyone presumed because of my career choice that I wanted at the time, which was to be a gym teacher that I was a lesbian

Lorri: Yeah.

Carolyn: and, and so interesting. And so I think that’s where I learned. Plus some other things, trauma to really disconnect and not trust my body

Lorri: interesting, 

Carolyn: and like just the mixed the mixed

signals. I

think that we’re getting

and, and I think this is going to take us into an interesting conversation I learned pretty quickly that my body. I didn’t know how to use it as an instrument,

Lorri: Yeah. Yeah, 

Carolyn: you, you said that that term last week when we were speaking,

your body is an instrument versus an ornament.

I never learned that this was an instrument unless I was on the court. And interestingly enough, I was having these other issues with my body, some knee surgeries. I had a heart issue for a while. Like then I had some digestive issues. I couldn’t hear my body anymore and I

stopped playing competitive sports.

Lorri: Oh, it makes me so sad. Yeah.

Carolyn: And I didn’t go, I didn’t go get my master’s of coaching.

And you know what, what if I bet you, I would have, if I had understood that my body was an instrument and there were some really important signals

Lorri: Yeah. I think it’s so amazing what you’re talking about because I think in, you know, both of our cases. You, you know, kind of learned to not trust your body because it felt like it was betraying you for me to figure out who I was, I had to trust my body and, you know, to say like, okay, I guess this is, this is it.

This is going to be me. What do I do with it? You know, and then that then become sort of the exploration of how to show up in the world.

And I think that, you know, the instrument ornament thing is just so fascinating. And this came from a quote, I, I saw this quote years ago, and Alanis Morissette is the one who said it, and she was talking about, yeah, yeah, and she was talking about just, she started to be, I was thinking it was runner’s world or something, she started to run marathons or started to run, and she said as soon as she realized that her body, she could use it as an instrument and not as an ornament.

She felt free. And it was then she felt like she could run and her body could be strong and just, she could celebrate that, not how it looks. And I think for me, interestingly, I never fit the look for a female. I’m back in the eighties. I mean, it’s a different, I mean, you know, again, it’s a different now.

I think it’s amazing. I don’t think it’s. It’s, it’s by no means perfect now, but it’d be, I often wonder what would it be like to be 15 today? You know, if I was me today, like would I be one of those people who would kind of be having the courage to come out at that point? And then it was very different.

What I knew was I didn’t fit the mold, it wasn’t right. And so I had to trust my body to be like, all right, well, I mean, you know, I trusted my body, not the world.

Carolyn: Right.

Lorri: so you maybe kind of not even trusted the world, but it was like not trust the body to figure out how to be in the world. Right. And so I think it’s, it’s, this is where self awareness, early exploration, working trauma, being open with our young people to let them talk about these things, I think is so critical.

You know, cause we both work with adults and they’re struggling with this now because we don’t talk about the, we don’t have these conversations when kids are 13, years old in a way that really helps them and invites them to explore like their body, their mind, their space in the world, who they are.

Carolyn: Oh, and then we take that we take and so I’ll, I’ll use myself as an example. So I, I did dissociate. And I made my way into a successful career in, in the business world and really abandoned. Any sort of communication with what my body was telling me I’ve been on a burnout leaf. I’ve had several digest digestive issues. My weight can go up and down. And and then just like monthly menstrual issues like before I went is an early menopause. But I’m realizing there have been these cues all through the years, but that was never her. Talked about, it was never discussed as whatever your gender identity

is in general. And, and this is what I feel very passionate to bring into the world, that gave me so much, which is the business

world, to bring awareness that. Are things about our body that’s telling us and the nervous system is, is probably the easiest one,

To, to start to understand that what regulation looks like what it doesn’t look like. And, you know, when you talked about breathing, if somebody had had taught me about breathing with a body scan, here’s some things we’re going to guide you through it.

Breathing is one of the best ways to bring some regulation to our nervous system.

Lorri: Absolutely. And I think, you know, when we think about where we go wrong often in life with relationships in the business world or personal life, it’s when we get hooked, by an experience or something that happens and we get a negative and emotion to it, you know, that negative feeling, I, then we get angry, we get resentful, we get hurt.

You know, our ego feels like it’s been threatened. And so then we react. And we react in not the best ways, you know, and in the business world is when you can’t take feedback. You snap at your employees, whatever it is. And if we could just learn in that moment to get in touch with ourself to say, there it is, that’s the feeling I’m about to, you know, snap, but instead I’m going to go outside.

I’m going to take a walk. I’m going to feel the sun warm my face. I’m going to do some breathing. I’m going to, some people say they. Do a push up. I mean, whatever it is

to just stop yourself from that negative action. You know, we’d be so much better off and the body can be a tool to help us re regulate,

you know, and it’s, we just need to learn, I think, how to do it and value it.

Carolyn: And recognize that a lot. I mean, what I just did is I just buried my head, did more work, did better

work. You want that done? Oh, great. Let me do that. Boundaries? No, I don’t say no. I’m going to just take on more work. So, yeah, I mean, obviously I’m going to guess every one of us can, can identify with that.

So I think there’s a nuance here too,

right. 

So what’s your, what’s your, PhD in Laurie

Lorri: Is it leadership? Actually, it’s a, yeah, 

Carolyn: and is there a specialization in that at all? Cause I know that you’ve done some work around gender fluidity

and gender identity. So how does that come into play here? Cause I know it’s a bit nuanced and I

want to, you know, Acknowledge that.

Lorri: Yeah. So my, my dissertation was in kind of women taking up their authority and kind of what I was really looking at was voice and power, how kind of women leaders found their voice, but then also groups and teams, right? So then there’s this, this kind of, you know, focus on groups and teams. But I think, you know, the interesting thing now, I guess we can take this in so many directions is.

This question, you know, we know women in the workplace and, and I think even the words we use is troublesome and we need to get clear on what we mean by what. So now when I, when I mean a person who has a biological body that is born female, so to me that means ovaries, uterus, vagina will grow breasts and have the capacity potentially to make milk.

They won’t grow facial hair. That’s what I would say. You know. There’s obviously a range we even within females, right, but that was a female than male kind of the other and then man woman I think I’m in the process of being open to understanding. What does that mean? What does it mean to be man woman in the world?

Right? Because that’s I think where we’re getting a lot of Push back on the boundaries to explore that as a society. So

Carolyn: wait, before

we go there,

so female, male, man, woman, they’re not interchangeable.

Lorri: No, I don’t think so. I think 

that’s 

Carolyn: describe that a 

Lorri: the problems. Yeah, 

Carolyn: bit, a little 

Lorri: So I think if we could have them not be interchangeable, it could be useful, right? So for example, for example, like I am a female, I birthed, I have my, my partner and I, my ex wife and I, I birthed the four kids. I nursed them. I mean, so I physically got pregnant, gained a ton of weight.

Birth for kids. Right? So for me, I am in touch with my femaleness for that. My pronouns are she because I identify my pronouns with my body and my biorepresentation of my sex. Right? So I’m a female. I identify gender wise as gender fluid because I show up in the world more the way society says is a man.

Right? I don’t think I’m man. 

Right? 

Carolyn: of where you want to shop in a store, for example.

Lorri: So society says, you know, again, Banana Republic says, this is the men’s section. This is the woman’s section. I go into the men’s section. Does that make me a man? I don’t know. I mean, you know, like

Carolyn: Right.

Lorri: I wear short hair. This is actually the longest my hair has been in a long time. I’m kind of playing with that right now.

So I have a lower voice and I am sporty. Now again, why is sporty like a man, right? And so I think if we start to unpack even what we mean by like, this is what a woman is, everybody says, you know, like It’s clear what a woman is. I don’t know why the trans community, like, do we know what a woman is?

Because I get called sir on the daily and that’s not about me. That’s about others, you know, drive thru, banks, grocers, wherever, strangers, and then they kind of take a closer look. Oh, sorry, you know. But again, if it’s so clear what a woman is, then why do I get called male? So I just say that because I think we all need to just be a little more open

You acknowledge that we don’t, when I say it’s obvious what woman and man is, it’s so clear.

Is it though?

Is it though? You know, so when a trans person says I’m a woman and we say, you know, you have a male genitalia. No, you’re not. It’s like, you know, is it though? Like, what does that mean? How do we kind of make those distinctions now? Maybe can, can we have a male woman? I mean, now it gets crazy a little bit, right?

So, and I know that’s not where we’re going, but I think just. Understanding the complexity and the nuance, and that we don’t have all the answers, I think is important. 

Carolyn: And I’m seeing there’s a connection here. If as a society, we’ve been kind of disconnected from our body.

Well, kind of a lot. This whole fluidity, gender fluidity is going to be a lot more difficult for us to understand,

to feel, to understand. And to embody, you know, I asked my son at one point, I’m like, am I non binary?

Cause I was a tomboy as a kid.

Lorri: Yeah.

Carolyn: And he’s like, well, do you like who, who do you like, who are you attracted to? Do you feel like a man? I was like, no, I feel like a woman.

Lorri: Right.

Carolyn: Shout out to Shania Twain. But and he was like, well, no, you’re female. And so that was part of my learning, but I do, I do wonder if this disassociation has really contributed to the angst and

the, the anxiousness.

Lorri: I wonder, you know, you can, I think you can be female and non-binary because our gender is the way we live ourselves out in the world. And I, again, I think this is just how we understand concepts that are misunderstood and confusing when we think about masculinity and femininity, right? If you think about masculine, you have an image in the mind.

If I ask the listeners, imagine femininity, what pops up? Maybe Barbie, maybe, you know, you know, who, whatever, right?

Extreme stereotypical feminine. So then, and we’ve attached that with woman. So you, you know, it’s conceivably, I think somebody could be a male, but be feminine because that male gravitates and feels more at ease and, you know, connected to expressing themselves as a.

In the feminine way, the world has says feminine, right? So I don’t see myself as anything but a woman, but the world would tell me the way that I live is much more aligned with man and masculine. And so, because of that, I say gender fluid because I think then that gives you a better sense of me. Right.

And I think we just want to be seen for who we are. So when people say, why the pronouns, why the gender non binary? Because I want you to realize that I am not your stereotypical female, you know, that shows up as a woman in the way that society would say women should show up. And so for me, that label feels more true to me to help you understand me a little better.

Carolyn: And I had a hard time understanding that as a child. So my body then became more, I’m going to come back to that quote of an ornament rather than an instrument.

And This is just so fascinating. Like I’m having so many connections happen because I did really struggle.

Like, Yeah.

I could do like the sexy female thing, but

it really felt weird. And at the end of the day, I didn’t even know what to do with this. And I just shut off my nervous system and you know, blah, blah, blah. Other things I’ve already said,

Lorri: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it’s sad to me to still see, cause I have a 16 year old daughter. So I’ve got to witness kind of her and all of her friends and and even in the work I do teaching undergrads who are a little older, but the pressure women still feel to treat their body like an ornament because that’s where they find value.

That’s where they feel like they’re valued by the world.

So looking a certain way, presenting yourself in a certain way, the shoulds, the shoulds of how we kind of present our experience, our appearance. And it’s really sad because then I think you do lose the potential of what your body could be.

And as such, then you lose the potential of the whole human,

right,

Because the mind is connected.

And so you’re just you know, ahead with an ornament, right? You’re not fully living to your potential. And so that’s the part that we can use embodied leadership and sort of an embodied wisdom to try to slowly chip away, you know, and peel back those layers.

Carolyn: what we’re, what I just want to be clear, what we’re not saying is you can’t dress up sacri like,

you can use your

Lorri: oh yeah. 

Carolyn: if you want to. It’s when you do it at the expense of using it as an instrument. Right? I just want to make sure I’m

Lorri: Yeah. And I think there’s a difference between wanting to dress nice and look good. You know, like I love it when my, you know, when my, my partner now tells me that I look super handsome in an outfit because we’re going out, like it feels good. I mean you, of course we want to look good, you know, in the, but the hope is that I can look in the mirror and say, I look good.

I’m not asking you and you and you and you do I look good? Do I look good? You know, like I can make that assessment myself. You know, and I’m, and there isn’t that negative judgment or that always like feeling like I don’t look good, but a hundred percent we can dress up. And I think the question is doing the work to make sure it’s authentically you.

And like you said, why are you dressing up? Why are you putting on makeup every day? And I tell the story real quick. The where. I’ve taught a lot of gender and leadership, women in leadership undergraduate classes, you know, at universities, three or four different universities. And every time when we come to sort of the topic of presenting yourself, there’s always sorority women, young women, athletes, just, you know, just college students and, and the inevitably the non athletes say.

We envy the athletes so much because they can come to class in their sweats and, you know, logoed sweatshirt 

with their hair pulled back and a pony and nobody cares because you know either they came from practice or they’re going to practice. And I remember one woman saying me. I had a, an exam at 8:00 AM that’s all I had.

And I got up at six to make sure I got ready to look like this and it broke my heart, you know, because I thought you’re going to take an exam and go home. It’s 8:00 AM sweats and a sweatshirt, and even throw a hat on, crush your test, go home and go back in bed. You know, you probably were studying all night, but the pressure to perform, right, that’s when the body becomes performative.

But you’re not on a stage, you know, you’re not. Beyonce, or Alicia Keys, or Pink, you’re just a person going to take a test. That’s where I think we get into trouble. And that’s where we need the guidance to kind of do that inner work to say, you know, for what reason, what’s my intention? What’s the motivation of getting dressed up?

Is it for me? Is it for the world? And can I, can I look at that?

Carolyn: And so how have men’s bodies, am I using the right term, male or male body?

Lorri: Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Mailman.

Carolyn: how might their bodies be ornaments versus instruments? Because it’s not like

anybody in this world has this whole embodied thing all figured out

in, in our offices.

Lorri: Of course. And I, you know, and I have sons also and, and I’ve seen them struggle with body image also, you know, and, and going through to going pre puberty and all that stuff. So it’s not exclusive to women. I think the different, and certainly we see men as ornaments and all of our male superheroes and the models and the, you know, kind of those things.

So it’s present. The difference though, when you think about say professional life, organizational life, the media men, the value for men at their body doesn’t stop there. Right where the value for women often stops at their body, and that’s the message women get This is what you are good for showing up beautiful right for men.

It’s you’re smart You make good decisions. You’re a superhero. You save the world if you happen to be hot on top of that bonus for us But you’re still saving the world and you’re doing all these things, right? And while there are certainly beautiful men like Thor and, you know, Captain America, you know, all those actors, there are other superheroes that maybe aren’t as ornamentally attractive that still get to go save the world.

But most of the females, when they kind of are, are cast, they’re very, you know, it’s beauty is right alongside saving the world. It’s always right there. And what’s the impact then on young females? Yeah. You know.

Carolyn: all of us, like the young males as well,

Lorri: Oh, for 

sure. 

Carolyn: how they see

Lorri: Exactly. And what they come to view women for. What they come to say, what is the value of a woman?

And what’s the capacity of a woman? Can a woman save the world? You know, if she’s not beautiful, can a woman make a big decision? Can a woman be president? You know, hmm.

Carolyn: Yeah. And what does beautiful even mean? Yeah. Wow. So let’s, let’s circle this back then into leadership.

So, you said that you, you know, you study and you teach some gender and leadership 

What, what else could we share with the evolved community here about our bodies as instruments? Perhaps as it relates to gender, male or female.

Lorri: Yeah, I mean, I think… I think one thing in the pushback we get when I do continue to do women in leadership programs or programs that focus on gender, that men are invited, anybody’s invited, but we’re going to look at the dynamic of gender in the workplace is that we still know there is a unique experience for those that identify as woman and female in the workplace than men.

There’s gender bias, there’s all the things. And so I think part of it is just number one, acknowledging that difference. Right. Acknowledging that there still is a unique experience and then how does that show up in you and him and her in our culture, and I think awareness and acknowledgement is 1 of the 1st steps. Right? And then we can go to the next step. Each of us as individuals is to say, okay, so where does that live in me? Where is the experience of being?

Who I am as a leader, as an employer, as a manager in the workplace, show up in my body, my heart, my gut, my mind. And so it’s doing deeper work around that. And more and more we’re seeing invitations for. Business leaders and, and employees that we’re going to slow down and do this deeper work about the self, the body, the relationship to others, the relationship to space, you know, even how our bodies relate to the space and the way the offices are set up and just to be more thoughtful and intentional about how we get to be in our world, in the workplace specifically.

Carolyn: So we’re back to what we said at the beginning, which is self awareness is just like almost the first step

in your leadership journey,

Lorri: I think self awareness, then that leads to other awareness. How are you with others? Are you aware of others? I mean, if we pivot quickly, you know, we know one of the psychological safety is a huge term right now. One of the components of teams that have psychological safety is what we call average social sensibility, meaning you can sense what others are going through

and you acknowledge it, right?

So there’s, yeah.

Carolyn: Is that kind of co regulation in some ways too?

Lorri: I think so. 

Carolyn: I think it’s, it’s sort of similar. It’s the fact, again, I’ll come back to the fact that our nervous systems are always communicating.

And if, if it’s either saying, Oh, you’re okay, or you’re not, or I’m not quite sure. If, if that has been if that goes unchecked and you don’t do your own work, so to speak, that social sensibility is going to be what’s I’m trying to think of a, of a proper word to use.

It’s going to be off

if you haven’t been doing your own

work or you’ve got some unresolved trauma.

Lorri: absolutely. And the way that I see co regulation from a leadership perspective too, is what a term that I call holding steady. So you notice that your team of direct reports is just, it’s chaos and it’s falling apart. Everyone’s stressed, you know, high time. How do you then hold steady in your body?

To then create the space for them to work the chaos that they’re feeling and hopefully come back to center

Right. The idea isn’t that with emotional intelligence all the time It’s not that we get to spew sloppy emotions and you know, lose ourselves in chaos all over there still is emotional professionalism

But the idea is as a leader, I’m going to acknowledge that I can notice that you all are just, you know, at your edge right now.

I understand why it’s a stressful time. We’ve had a couple of decisions that we don’t like, what do I need to do to stay grounded and connected so that then I can support you as your leader, as your manager, director, your boss. Helping you move through this process to then get back to center. And what does that mean for us?

Do we as a team need to go take a walk? Do we need to take a break? Do we need to stop? Do we need to stand up and wiggle it out? Do we need to sometimes truly it’s get up and everybody yell, just let’s scream because we can’t say what we want to say to our bosses. So we’re just gonna, but again, it’s using the body to help others regulate.

But if I’m out of whack as the leader, You know, they’re gonna stay out of whack. So when we co regulate it’s that kind of relationship piece

Carolyn: And, and so what I, what I want to acknowledge what you just said there is, is when you stay grounded and centered as a leader, it doesn’t mean you solve or fix everybody’s problems

Lorri: right.

Carolyn: and it’s coming back to the body. How can we bring ourselves back to a place where our emotions are not turning off this executive functioning?

Lorri: Mm hmm

Carolyn: So shaking. Like you said, just even if you just shake I, I always, I say in, in workshops, I lead, I’m like sitting is optional, everybody.

And very few people even, I think consider that an option.

So, so let’s see, I just, I, let’s get really practical for a second. You’re that calm, grounded leader. We’ve just had some really frustrating realities we’ve been talking about and let’s say I come to you and I’m really stressed out.

Lori, but, but, but, like, what about how can you make that real? How can you just regulate, co regulate with me in that moment? What would that look like?

Lorri: Yeah, so one of this kind of piece of advice that I got was this idea is that the the hotter the environment You know the hotter the issue The cooler the tone has to be so if somebody comes into you and they’re speaking fast and they’re speaking loud And they’re speaking because they’re agitated that you really then need to take a slow breath You need to slow down and get to this would be you know This cooler more calm space to say and perhaps it’s I see you’re really frustrated You know, and I wish I could make it go away and I can’t and part of it you mentioned we don’t fix first of all We we can’t fix we often aren’t fixing we think we’re fixing so it makes us feel better, but it’s a fantasy, right?

But we can validate We can help people be seen 

and so I can see you and say I can see that you are Just at your edge with frustration and anger and I understand this is tough. This decision didn’t come it came from above all of our pay grades and I Don’t like it either, you know, but then it’s this kind of, again, conveying confidence.

So you’re validating, but then conveying confidence that, but we trust our organization. That’s what we’re going to do. And we’re going to figure out how to get through this and navigate it together. And so then just that, I mean, even just that tone, that pace, I mean, even, you know, they’ll probably take a moment and the invitation can then be when you’re ready.

Let’s talk about how you think we can navigate this. It’s not going to be easy, but I’d love your input.

Carolyn: And you cannot do that in its fullest embodied form. Without taking the breath and telling your own nervous

system, we’re 

Lorri: That’s right. That’s right. Because you will, you know, if you don’t do that, you’re going to match that frenetic, angry, resentful energy. And then it’s just going to be, you know, then it will be a situation, a conversation of anger and resentment. That’s not helpful in any, you know, an anger and resentful conversation.

It isn’t useful, you know, now we can have conversations where we acknowledge our anger and frustration, but if there isn’t some grounding in that space, right, it’s just going to be lost up in this kind of, you know, disembodied, I don’t think we know that word yet, but disembodied all up here, all crazy, angry, resentful.

We’re not going to then have any weight again to be with the best way I can say is to be in your centered place, which is where you can then act, you know, in the best way possible in that moment.

Carolyn: And that’s the missing piece that if we could bring into meeting rooms to help bring that, you know,

charged energy

Lorri: Yep. 

Carolyn: back into a grounded place.

Lorri: right. That’s right.

Carolyn: And here I am at 51 learning how to do that

myself and

trying to 

Lorri: also, and, and where we can practice it, right? So one of the, my biggest teachers, let’s say two, you know, have been my kids and then my partner, you know? So my, my partner, I’m a, if you know, you know, MBTI, I’m a T through and through. I’m a thinker. I live in the head. Right. Often. And so the body has been an instrument for sport, but I’ve had to work over the years to kind of reconcile all the other things and tap into the emotional side.

Right. But

so I can, I move very fast. I speak very fast. So that can come across as dismissive. It can come across as not listening and it sometimes is dismissive and I sometimes I’m not listening. Right. So I’ve been able to practice this with my kids when they come and tell me something or I get that status report that there’s five missing assignments that I told you, you know, on Monday to turn in on Tuesday and now it’s Friday.

Instead of grabbing my phone and studying that hate text, you’re grounded, right? Take the dog, go outside, throw the ball a couple of times, come back in, you know, and take a moment. Right. And so there’s ways to practice not getting lost in disequilibrium. Right. Whether that disequilibrium is the chaos of the head, disequilibrium is kind of unregulated emotion, whether the disequilibrium, you know, is just confusion and uncertainty, you know, when we exist and act from that place, it never goes well.

Carolyn: Wow. 

Any last pieces of advice you’d like to share before we head into the three Evolve

Lorri: Ooh, I don’t think so. I mean, I think I would just say in all of this, and I’ve listened to some of your other podcasts too, has been some amazing guests, you know, this work takes time, it requires self compassion and gratitude. It requires a support system. So, you know, even though you and I don’t talk that often or a dare to lead crew, when I get on the zoom call and see all of your beautiful faces and it’s like, Oh, here’s my people.

Yes. You know,

and so just. Find the ways that you can give yourself that grace and self compassion. And sometimes it is finding your community that is doing this too, right? In the arena with you, you know, and they can give you that support.

Carolyn: I’m so glad that we were in the same, were we even, yeah, we were in the

Lorri: September again. Yeah, September of 19, right? 

Carolyn: I don’t even remember what table you sat at though. It happened afterwards. I think

I heard your background. I was like, where is that? is that woman? I need to find her.

Lorri: I’m glad you did.

Carolyn: yeah, yeah, me too. And it was fully my Enneagram type at work.

One to one dominant. Anyway Lori, to close things off, I ask all the guests to answer three questions that have to do with what I think are the three elements of an evolved leader. Are you game to answer?

Lorri: Yeah, for sure.

Carolyn: All right. And they’re very much related to everything we

talked about.

 So the first question is about self awareness and do you want to share an experience, a moment something you learned, maybe it was a hard lesson

Carolyn: that brought an incredible amount of insight to you, just elevated your self awareness to a new level.

Lorri: hmm. Yeah, I mean, that’s such a great question. So I think there have been moments where I’ve learned that I just need to trust myself and choose me. And I definitely felt that kind of in, you know, my, my young teens when I was reconciling with my sexuality. My early twenties when I was rec, selling more with my gender expression in the world and, and being, and feminism, you know, and then my thirties when I chose to have children.

And just along the way there’s all these moments where I have recognized, and it started I think, with my sexuality, but it was this choice point of either you choose the world or you choose you. And if you choose the world, you’re gonna. Live a life, not yours. And I knew I didn’t want to live a life that wasn’t mine.

I knew that much. I didn’t know what it would look like. And I didn’t know if I was choosing a shitty life that was going to be mine, but totally shitty. But I made that choice at that point. And I think that moment, there’s been moments where I come back to. Do I choose the world? Do I choose me? And have I done my due diligence to make sure I’m not ego driven?

You know, I want to be in alignment when I make that choice.

But that’s been, I think, a constant self awareness opportunity is just this, you know, world 

Carolyn: I love the way. Yeah. You’re going to choose the world. You’re going to choose yourself. Yeah.

Lorri: it’s hard, it’s hard,

it’s hard, it’s not easy,

Carolyn: which is why you need the community

Lorri: yeah, that’s right, that’s right, that’s right, Yeah.

Carolyn: Is there a practice? I know you just said you like take your dog, go for a

quick walk. But is there another practice or ritual perhaps that you have that helps you stay in more of a regulated state?

Lorri: Yeah, I mean, being a body type and a former athlete and I still think I’m an athlete. My body might say otherwise, but my mind still thinks I’m 26 and ready to do it.

Carolyn: You’re in a, you’re just

Lorri: A tough matter. 

Exactly. 

Carolyn: You’re in the master’s 

Lorri: Oh, senior division pretty soon, right? So exercise is huge for me. I can tell if I don’t do exercise and I’ve had to reframe what that looks like over the years based on time and injuries and stuff too.

But I know for sure I am incredibly deregulated if I don’t have consistent exercise. The other thing which is kind of different is that I start my day at some point. Reading something that I consider to bring me wisdom or thought like a poem or just pick up, you know, Walden Pond and just read that or pick up something that is not so much even like the, the leadership eBooks, but something more poetic, inspiring philosophy and just try to connect to something bigger and deeper than my, my to do list.

Carolyn: Hmm. 

Lorri: something that invites me to contemplate kind of that contemplation practice. So I would say those two things are what I do. Yeah.

Carolyn: Wow. And then third question a song or genre of music that makes you feel connected to something bigger than yourself.

Lorri: So when you, when I heard the, that question on my thought, I had two things of how I just saw pink, pink and credible. I mean, I love so much about her. So she comes up right away. I think I actually, I think she’s embodies authenticity and standing for a cause and she’s a performer and talk about being in your body and that show.

It is amazing.

Carolyn: Isn’t it? Yep.

Lorri: Yeah. Yeah. 

Carolyn: I was on the floor for that show.

It was amazing. I was part of the show, it felt

Lorri: Oh my gosh, so amazing. Yeah, yeah. But the other part I would say would be, my, my go to would be the Indigo Girls and women singer songwriters of the 90s.

Okay, yeah, like the 80s

Carolyn: Like Melissa

Etheridge. 

Lorri: Melissa Etheridge, Sean Colvin, Sarah McLachlan, Tracy Chapman, you know, some of that, please.

Because what they… Did so well for me is connect deep feeling right deep emotion because I was not I’m in the head to life experience almost giving me permission to Listen to that the songs and feel so I felt like all of that music really helped me get in touch with that So I would say indigo girls 100 percent would be like my you know, straight on desert island can only take one one group But then that whole kind of 90s You know, women’s singer songwriters I think are just amazing.

Carolyn: Oh, love it. Love it. Speaking of women songwriters, I saw an artist last week and I want to make sure I get her name right. So I’m looking it up. Her first name is Joy.

She’s a black queer woman and she communicates so beautifully through song. 

Joy Oladokun. O L A D O K U N.

Lorri: Perfect. Love your music. It’s so, so great. Yeah. Music is another way I think to get into the body. Right. And I think music, we didn’t really bring it up, but I would say that would be a whole nother, that’d be a whole nother awesome podcast is just thinking about music, you know, from a musician standpoint and not

what they do on stage, you know, cause now all the performers, they are there.

Most of them, many of them, you know what, many of the women I say too, are very embodied on that stage. And it’s, you know, that’d be 

Carolyn: I think that’s, that’s when you can really for concert goers, like, you know, or music

lovers I go to concerts at least once a month. There’s a big difference between Someone coming up and singing and you see those, like I get it. You can’t always show up at work a hundred percent every day and then other moments.

And I think this is where the pinks, like that type of performance, it’s so embodied. It just brings

you in and there’s such integration and a flow and you can tell it, you can experience it and feel it. I saw Alicia Keys recently

Lorri: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I saw her 

Carolyn: And I saw her five or six years ago,

this one was very different and I would use the embodied the way she like walked on the

stage, the way she care, the way she flowed in her body. There was just a new level of wisdom, no words needed.

It was like, I am all of

this in its glory and wonder.

It was really powerful.

Lorri: story real quick about Alicia. our sons are friends. I know her. We do Pilates together.

Um, Yeah, she lives in San Diego now. She lives in La Jolla. But, but I saw her also, and even just the way she kind of moves through the world, it is, it is, I don’t know if she is intentional consciously, but even watching the kids, you know, play flag football, it’s like just, it’s a presence.

And I think it is a presence that is a result of the wisdom of the body with the wisdom of her voice, with the wisdom of her head, with the wisdom of years of her own experience with her,

her her parents and what she’s lived through and all those things. And you see it and you feel it. I mean, that’s for people who are leaders and want to walk in the room and have a presence.

It’s as much, you know, your posture and your body as well as the energy and the thoughts and it’s. Finding a way to put them all into one and let them just flow inside here. And she’s an example, I think Alicia is an example of somebody who has done that masterfully, you know, yeah.

Carolyn: Whew. Wow. We could, we could talk and have even more exciting topics. Maybe there’ll have to be a second episode, who

Lorri: Thank you, this is so fun. Yeah.

Carolyn: thank you so much for coming on, Laurie. I really, really appreciate it. If anybody’s interested in learning more about your work or, you know, connecting and seeing what you’re into the, in the world, I know you have a YouTube channel.

Lorri: Yeah, I do actually. I have a YouTube channel that we can put in the show notes. I have a YouTube channel. I have an Instagram, you know, I’ve got my website. So it’s all Lori Sulpizio, two R’s. So maybe it can make me in the show notes. But would love to have people join the community. I think what I try to do with that is just create a space for conversation, like what you’re doing, right?

Invite people to be part of a conversation where we can tackle some of the harder things, but with compassion and grace and respect and then kind of be better for it, right? Thank 

Carolyn: Love it. Thank you.

so much, Lori. And thanks to everybody for tuning in. We’ll see you again on our next episode.

So I woke up in the middle of the night last night knowing that I had this conversation with Laurie today and her diverse background. I knew that it could go in a lot of different ways. And to be honest, I thought, okay, I’ve built out the plan. We’ve talked about this. I didn’t quite know which direction it would all go into.

I think. It went better than I’d hoped it to. And as you experienced, we came in and out of some big areas, but at the core for me, it came back to identity and identity is very nuanced and it is very personal. And when Laurie. shared with us that she showed the world. I think her quote was, I chose the world and or you can choose the world that you can choose yourself.

And she chose to choose herself way back as a younger version of herself. And that one hit hard. Because I chose the world and I want to change that and I’m working on changing that and that’s what motivates me to do this work. There’s a lot of reasons why we will choose ourself or we’ll choose the world.

And this is why self awareness is so important. Why it’s so fundamental to being a good leader in today’s workplaces. And frankly, in our communities, I hope this conversation really gave you some interesting things to think about. As always, I would love to hear your thoughts on it. You can let us know through a review on any platform that you listen to us on, 

If you’re ready to dive deeper into any of these topics that we’ve talked about, please feel free to reach out to Laurie through her contact info in the show notes. And you can reach out to me as well. Got a book, got this podcast and would love to do any work with you and your organization. If you think that that would serve you best at this time.

Thanks for listening. We’ll see you again soon.