How NLP helped me create Evolve with Leisse Wilcox


NLP is the user’s manual to your mind. It is a shortcut to help you to truly know yourself – how your mind works, processes information and experiences. Our thoughts and internal dialogue are an extension of the core beliefs that we hold in an unconscious capacity. We cannot access 90% of the iceberg that’s hidden below the surface.

Perceived blocks or obstacles become ingrained in the fabric or the fiber of our being from unconscious experiences we’ve had in our very earliest childhood days. Nervous system healing happens at an unconscious level and refers to somebody else’s version of reality that they pass on to us until we decide to do things differently. We discussed a range of topics from what NLP stands for, my upcoming book and how we can create our own narrative from a healed and informed place.

Leisse Wilcox

Known as the Marie Kondo of Your Unconscious, Leisse Wilcox takes a human-centered and values-based approach to senior leadership teams focusing on emotional health and resilience. She applies a results-focused and strategic approach to creating workplaces people love to be in.

The Secret Weapon of the C Suite, helping leaders and teams get results by getting them get out of their way. With 20+ years of experience serving senior leaders and close to 100 organizations to navigate chaos and change with emotional fortitude, Leisse Wilcox blends real-life wisdom with practical tools to ensure sweeping transformations.


We discuss:

  • What NLP means and why it is important.

  • When you tap into feelings and emotions during an NLP session, you can end up with a vulnerability hangover.

  • If you stay stuck in the story of overcoming you stay stuck in the trauma of the past.

  • The gift of using NLP informed work is that we start to understand how our past has informed or shaped our present without letting it dictate our future.

  • What imprint your story left behind and how can we create a new story that moves you in the direction you want to go.

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[00:00:00] Leisse: These unconscious experiences are limiting beliefs. Anything that’s a perceived block or obstacle. And they become that way, like they become ingrained in the fabric or the fiber of our being from these unconscious experiences we’ve had in our very earliest childhood days. If we ignore that 90%, what we’re really ignoring is the part of our brain and the part of our body that is responsible for making us feel safe.

[00:00:32] Carolyn: Wilcox helps you build a relationship with yourself. She’s a passionate speaker, a two times bestselling international author, and results focused embodied wealth coach. Lease works with purpose-driven women who are ready to close the gap between self-worth and net worth. She built her first multiple six figure business while navigating cancer, a complex divorce.

[00:01:00] Follow of emotional and financial abuse and solo parenting. Three young girls. She is no stranger to resiliency, reinvention, and starting over at any age, and she knows intimately that every relationship we have in business life, love and money is built on the foundation of the relationship we have with ourselves.

[00:01:24] Lease has been featured in media, including entrepreneur. Refinery 29 CNN Elephant Journal, the Toronto Star, C B C, and Thrive Global. In March, 2020, right before our world shut down, I was at a conference. It was a conference of female entrepreneurs wanting to change the world, and somebody pointed out this really dynamic influencer named Lisa Wilcox and they said, you need to follow her.

[00:01:57] So I did. I didn’t wanna miss out on anything. Cool. Well, little did I know that I would be working with her two short years later, and little did I know that in my work with her, I would come to learn things about myself. That I didn’t know were there, and it would be a catalyst for not only this upcoming book evolve, but it would also help me expand my business and my vision for how I wanna be in the world.

[00:02:27] I’m really, really excited to bring this conversation to you because my work with Lisa. Has transformed what I’m bringing into the world. You will hear us talk about N L P, you’ll hear us talk about safety in our brain, and there will be a few little laughs in there as well. I hope you enjoy it. Welcome to Evolve a new era of leadership, a podcast for real leaders to join real conversations with business experts, practitioners thought leaders, and change makers who integrate head, heart, and body in all they do, who commit to compassion and curiosity, who commit to radical self-leadership in their quest to understand others better too.

[00:03:14] Because the only way to deliver real results is to understand what it takes to lead real human beings. This is a new era of leadership.

[00:03:29] I’m Carolyn Sora, and this is Evolve a new era of Leadership. All right, y’all. I am so excited to bring this guest on because it’s no word of a lie. This woman has changed my life. And Lisa Wilcox, welcome to the show. I’m so happy you’re here. 

[00:03:45] Leisse: You have changed my life. So thank you so much for having me 

[00:03:48] Carolyn: on.

[00:03:49] Ah, it only seemed right to have you on a few weeks before my book Evolve Launches. You were such an inspiration and really like, you know, the work that we did. So full disclosure, everyone, Lisa, is my coach, is, was, continues to be. I don’t think I’ll ever let you go. Was my coach and I hired her specifically because of a specialization in an LP neurolinguistic processing programming.

[00:04:19] Okay. Programming. And I was very intentional about this. And so the reason why I wanna have Lisa on to talk to y’all is. It really unlocked a lot of things for me as a leader. It helped me become more integrated and it also led to this book Cause Least you’re like one of the few people who read round one, which was not anything like what is being released in a few weeks.

[00:04:42] Is it? It 

[00:04:43] Leisse: feels like all of book one or version one became like a chapter inversion. Yeah. 

[00:04:49] Carolyn: Yeah. Where do we start? Let’s start a little bit with, can you just share for the audience like what is N L P and why is it something that you specialized in as a coach? 

[00:05:03] Leisse: Great question, and I feel like I never get a chance to actually talk about this part of it because NLB has basically become the medicine.

[00:05:10] It has become like the framework of the toolkit that I use that informs all of my coaching, but I just never really talk about it. Well, 

[00:05:16] Carolyn: you can geek out, like go ahead. 

[00:05:19] Leisse: Thank you. So N L P stands for neurolinguistic programming, and it’s a modality, it’s a framework. It’s effectively the user’s manual to your mind.

[00:05:30] So, you know, we’re all born with this really, really complex brain that dictates so much slash all of our behavior, both consciously and unconsciously. And Plato say how many thousands of years ago? Know thyself, like our job is to really go through this self-education to truly know who we are and we spend lifetime or lifetimes getting to know this person.

[00:05:57] N L P is almost like a shortcut, or as I said, it’s this framework, this user manual, to actually understanding. How your mind works processes, information, and experiences. So what is so powerful about it to me is that it really, it was the first modality that taught me to break down the genuine. Process of what’s happening with how we relate to our world.

[00:06:26] So we have our actions and behaviors, like we have all the things that we do, and of course they are dictated or they are really shaped or informed by our thoughts and that internal conversation. Most coaching stops right there. A lot of coaches will be like, you know, you gotta change your mindset. You gotta just think good thoughts.

[00:06:46] You gotta act positively. You know, let’s focus on the law of attraction and manifesting. Let’s just set a goal and work at it until it happens. That is 10% of the story. So it’s ineffective without the other 90%. And that other 90% is the awareness that our thoughts and that internal dialogue that we have is an extension of the core beliefs that we hold and we hold them in an unc.

[00:07:16] Capacity so that 90% of the iceberg that’s hidden below the surface that we don’t really access to are these unconscious experiences are limiting beliefs. Anything that’s a perceived block or obstacle, and they become that way, like they become ingrained in the fabric or the fiber of our being from these unconscious experiences we’ve had in our very earliest childhood days.

[00:07:45] So if we ignore that 90%, what we’re really ignoring is the part of our brain and the part of our body that is responsible for making us feel safe. And as you I both know, nervous system healing and nervous system awareness has become kind of like a buzzword or a catchy phrase. That’s what we’re talking about.

[00:08:05] Yeah. We’re talking about all the stuff that happens at an unconscious level that was basically somebody else’s version of reality that they passed onto us, and it becomes our version of reality until we decide to do it differently. Just thinking about it is only a part of the process. Only a 

[00:08:23] small 

[00:08:23] Carolyn: piece of it.

[00:08:24] Yeah. Yeah. And so when I came to you, I had done a significant amount of work. Yes. And as, as you and I both know, an area, a modality, I don’t even know if modality is the right word, but I really did a lot of work under the Enneagram system. And so for me, looking at the three centers of intelligence, the head, the heart, and the body, and understanding my emotional patterns, that was a big part of my work.

[00:08:47] And that’s sort of the first piece, right? Yes. What we think is obviously impacted by our emotions coming to you was sort of that. Intentional opportunity to unpack what are those thought patterns? Yeah, and I’ll be honest, I thought it was gonna be pretty straightforward, like, okay, belief systems, I’ll write stuff down.

[00:09:06] What I didn’t realize and what it unlocked was all of this unconscious stuff and I will never forget. On our breakthrough day, I don’t even remember the exact question, but I remember the feeling cuz I’m heart based. I remember afterwards thinking, There’s something about trauma, there’s something here that I need to tap into.

[00:09:31] Cuz you know, on breakthrough day we were doing a bunch of stuff and then I felt horribly embarrassed and like I had this big vulnerability hangover thinking that you must think I’m like the weirdest client for actually saying that. And I remember how something unlock. You made me feel safe to tap into something that has been sort of simmering, but I couldn’t articulate it and I couldn’t pull it out.

[00:09:54] And then things just, you know, went from there. But I’ll never forget that feeling, thinking she thinks. I’m so silly for saying there’s something about trauma that I need to bring into the world when it comes to myself, but also to leadership. 

[00:10:07] Leisse: Yeah. Okay. So that’s not a thing. I would, I don’t think that, and I never was.

[00:10:11] I know, I know. I understand. That’s a perception. But No, not at all. I mean, we now both have done our, our trauma informed training. Yeah. And even that as a framework is just such a beautiful paradigm to understand that we have the thing that happened. And then we have the emotional scarring or wounding from the thing that happened.

[00:10:34] And then we have the numbing agent we use to avoid feeling the emotional trauma of the thing that happened. And then where I come in is that, that’s step four, right? Um, you know, where we start to reconnect away from like disconnect from the numbing agent re. To that feeling of the experience so we can actually start healing forward.

[00:10:58] Right, and and that’s what’s so beautiful about this kind of work and the depth, like the depth of this work, because it really takes you to the very root of who you are and you know. Yeah. If you go to my website, one of my favorite stories is there on a video, it’s called The Vine Story. And it’s this notion that the one of the first houses that I bought, we had this out of control vine that was growing on the back deck, and I’m not gonna tell the whole story, but the punchline is that I didn’t wanna deal with this vine.

[00:11:28] It was too complicated. So I just kept sniping off little pieces of it, and that only solved it as a temporary measure. Until I did the really deep, hard work of going under the deck and hacking away at the root of it to find out what the hell is the actual problem here. Right? And so for me, in the work that I do with literally everyone, like my husband included, bless him, is figure out like, what is that root?

[00:11:54] What’s the origin story? What’s the program behind all of these stories that we’ve been living in, and how do we address it at the roots we can actually, quote unquote, solve all the problems on the surface that really bother us. Yeah, and we use that. Concept of the vine through this trauma-informed lens of understanding.

[00:12:16] It’s just camping out in your unconscious, speaking through your body. Now we can actually get to next level self-awareness, self-education, and therefore 

[00:12:26] Carolyn: healing. And so one of the things that I wanna make really clear for the listeners is to do that. We don’t have to unpack what the trauma was, so I wanna make that really clear to everybody.

[00:12:39] I didn’t come into these sessions and throw my legs up on a couch and start talking about any of what one might deem a, a traumatic event, big tea or little t It was. Through your magic and your N L P certification and all your experience with that, helping me understand stories and belief systems. And I think I’m so blown away.

[00:13:02] Like, I mean, you got to see that first copy of the book and the first copy was called The Perfect Widow. That’s right. And it was very much focused on one part of my story while trying to breach out into some other aspects as. And I don’t know if you remember what prompted you to gently or kindly encourage me to think beyond that, but do you remember sort of that sort of time was April mm-hmm.

[00:13:31] Of whatever year? 2022, I guess, where you read it and you sent it back to me and you just kindly asked me to think about some other things. Yes, yes. I, 

[00:13:42] Leisse: so I have really high eq. Yeah. I have a Master’s certification N lp, which is again like an incredible toolkit. And so then I take all those tools and then like the other part of the equation for me is this like blessing and then curse of having really high eq.

[00:13:56] And so I remember reading it and being. But who’s your target audience? And like, are you now shifting your business to work with other widows who’ve had this experience? And I remember it was like, yes, and they’re this, this, and this. And like so much more than just being defined by being a widow. And all of a sudden it was like, Oh, that’s like I have this moment sometimes in my head where I’m like, oh no.

[00:14:21] Oh no. There’s such a great risk of me saying this, but like, I don’t think this is the book that you wanna 

[00:14:28] Carolyn: write. Yeah. And I remember you telling me that and thinking, but that’s what I was looking for. Right? Because you were the first person to read it and it was months, it was just a lot that came out and a lot of processing that I was able to do.

[00:14:42] And I originally started this book. Trying to make it a business book at all. It was. And you know when you get to read it, if you haven’t read it already out there listeners, there’s this theme about a letter to my boys, to my two children. And when you sent back, you sent back Exactly. I think what I was hoping.

[00:15:01] Mm-hmm. And I don’t know from an N L P perspective, but was I stuck? Like was there a certain pattern in there? Because I feel like after you sent me that note mm-hmm. We then continued cuz I’m like, Lisa, I can’t do this without you. I need you to help me structure this. What was going on there from an N L P perspective?

[00:15:18] Leisse: So, One of the greatest like hacks in understanding ourselves, especially when we’re having a really hard time, is asking, what am I making this mean about me? Hmm. And I think it’s kind of an iteration of that little mindset shift or that like challenging question is that what are you making this mean about you?

[00:15:39] Or how are you getting stuck in the story or what is the story you’re telling yourself about that story and what do you have to gain by hanging onto it? Yeah, because I find a lot of us who’ve had really traumatic backgrounds and like painful human life experiences. And we have the courage and resiliency to explore them and not stay stuck in the trauma, but then like really do this big work of overcoming.

[00:16:08] I find that like 99% of us wanna get stuck in the story we attach to overcoming. Yeah. And so that’s just an extension of staying stuck in the story. But we framed it differently ourselves because now we look like the hero to our own victim. But as soon as there is a hero to our own victim, the victim is still present.

[00:16:29] Right? Yeah. And that’s not to diminish anybody’s experience. Yours, mine, anyone else’s. It’s the notion that. At some point we probably wanna be mindful of who am I without this story? And I think for you it was like you had this like, you know, multi-year spanning decades, series of traumatic events and.

[00:16:54] Going through the healing process from that is such a big deal that it, I think it becomes so natural to stay stuck in the pride and the celebration of being able to overcome that. Yep. And if we’re not careful, we stay stuck in the story of overcoming, which means we stay stuck in the trauma of the past.

[00:17:14] Carolyn: And that was like doing that work with you again. Way unexpected. I mean, what I had hoped to get in working with you. Just was exponentially greater than what I had anticipated. And I think part of that is not fully understanding what a coach can do for us. I’m fine with, I believe we should all have a psychologist or a psychotherapist the moment we’re born.

[00:17:37] We’re not meant to try and figure out all this shit in life on our own, but I did have a bit of a belief that it had to be with that type of practitioner. Mm-hmm. Through my experience with you, I realized there is a place for both. Mm-hmm. And again, we never went back and unpack and explored the why and everything.

[00:17:55] It was all about how do I move forward? And you know, I think back to when you sent me that message, was it email or a voice note? 

[00:18:04] Leisse: Might have been both, but for that it was probably a voice message. Actually, 

[00:18:08] Carolyn: I do remember this thought of, oh. Like if something really dropped, like, and again, future forward, Carolyn, is this really who I am going to be?

[00:18:21] I hadn’t even realized how I had swirled myself around this identity that, you know, goes back to little three year old Carolyn. 

[00:18:30] Leisse: Yes. I think that’s the gift of using N L P informed work is that we start to understand how our past has informed or shaped our present without letting it dictate our future.

[00:18:43] Yeah. So it’s not bypassing, it’s not just glossing over. And it’s also not getting stuck in the, like I think that sometimes therapy people are not gonna like it when I say this, but I think that sometimes therapy is actually a detriment because I think it can take you so far and then at a certain point, like, you gotta stop talking about it.

[00:19:00] Yeah. Right. Because you know, you think of neurolinguistic programming, the words that we use. Keep cementing those stories to be true, right? So if we keep talking about how victimized we were, if we keep talking about, you know, how much we’ve overcome, it’s like, okay, but we’re just reinforcing all of those patterns from belief all the way to actions and behavior to be true.

[00:19:23] So to actually dig in and realize that. There’s a different way, or that we can kind of change that narrative. That is how we start to move forward, creating our own new narrative from a healed and informed place. 

[00:19:39] Carolyn: Yeah, and I just didn’t even realize I was so. Unconsciously connected to resilient. Yeah.

[00:19:47] Strong Carolyn, right? The archetype of of the warrior. And you know, we also explored a lot about the energy of masculine, not gender-based, but like power and dominant and control. And hey, I’ve mastered that really well and the. Benefit to bringing in and even understanding what the heck feminine energy is and that it’s okay and it does balance things off.

[00:20:11] And I think it just unlocked, it was like a floodgate, a tsunami. And so when you sent me that note and I realized, oh yes, this is where the book needs to go. We engaged in another bit of work. Cause I was like, Lisa, I dunno how the hell to do this. So can you just share with the audience maybe what.

[00:20:31] Experience was like, and what you saw unfold in me, and I’m sure you were using some NLP stuff along the way. Yeah. 

[00:20:38] Leisse: Cause I use both, right? Like I’m super keen intuition because. Any good coach is like good at listening and they’re good at like holding space. One of my additional gifts I would say is like, I’m a great listener and I can listen to what you’re saying, but I’m also really fascinated by what you’re not saying.

[00:20:56] And it’s like that to me is where all the beauty lives. And so once we kind of got clear on giving yourself permission to tell your story, but to tell. In a totally different way for a completely different purpose. So not from the purpose of like, listen, I have dusted out all of the dust bunnies from under my like emotional bed, and now I’m airing them.

[00:21:18] But to take them and be like, actually, here’s the experience I had, but here’s how I’ve applied it in the business that I have, and here’s the legacy that I’m leaving not only to my children. But to their children through starting to reframe leadership and look at the workplace in a post covid world in particular, in a totally different way and like humanizing it.

[00:21:41] So for me, it’s like as soon as we kind of got that permission granted or that permission slip like signed, that we could move forward in that direction. Yep. Then to me it’s. I always think in four dimensions and it’s like, oh, I know exactly what you need to say. We just need to get it on paper. Right.

[00:21:58] It’s just we need to just create the structure for it, and if we have that structure or a table of contents in the context of a book, as long as that structure and backbone is there, then the rest you basically just fill in the blanks. Yeah. 

[00:22:11] Carolyn: So everybody knows, we then met every week for like two or three months.

[00:22:15] Yeah. And I just talked and talked and you had ask me questions. Yeah. And it was all there. And as it was coming out I was like, holy shit, she was right. It is all here. And I still have those cards. I think I’m gonna keep them forever. And you were gonna send them to me as we went along. But you sent them to me all when we were done stack of cue cards.

[00:22:33] Yeah. And that was a real release. And that’s where this whole notion of trauma informed leadership. Really started to take hold cuz what I realized through telling you all of that story, or not story, just giving you all that information and having you order it for me was throughout the entire pandemic, like when it was really active, I kept saying to people, this isn’t my first pandemic and internalizing this notion of this isn’t my first pandemic, this isn’t my first pandemic.

[00:23:05] I was just using the wrong word. Mm. It was, no one has been through, well, maybe unless you’re over a hundred. When was that? When did we have that? Like in the 1920s? Like Yeah, 

[00:23:15] Leisse: it was like 19. 19. It was almost 

[00:23:17] Carolyn: exactly. Yeah. So funny how I couldn’t even use that word. And then, as you know, I dove right into doing trauma research.

[00:23:26] We both got certified from a trauma informed counselor or therapist as well. And then I started to realize, All the connection to my work. Yes. I went back into my dear to lead training and found a quote that Brene Brown had said to us, and then everything just, that took me sort of to the next phase, cuz then I had to do like another whole round of work and I’ll likely be talking about that on another podcast.

[00:23:50] And then I realized, I didn’t wanna be shy and quiet about it, cuz I know the T word. I didn’t wanna say it, I couldn’t even say it, but I think it’s time that we do understand what it means and what it doesn’t mean because it has so much relation back to the safety that our unconscious brain, yes.

[00:24:11] Perceives 

[00:24:11] Leisse: completely. And you know, one of the mutual friends that we have just shared the other day, and I don’t know who is the original source of this quote, but I personally cannot stop thinking about it, that the CEO’s wounding will always dictate company culture. Yes. That is just this like new, refreshing honesty on reality because we know that to be true.

[00:24:34] We know that to be true. So where you’re coming in, How could you not have trauma informed leadership? Because being a human is traumatic. Sorry. Yeah, sorry. It is, it’s traumatic. It’s experience. Yep. Yeah. And so to gloss over that and pretend that’s not happening is just so dumb, like we’re lack of a better word.

[00:24:54] And so coming at it being like, no, of course we’re, we’re coming to work with. You know, a trauma informed experience because we’re humans. So instead of trying to use this really old, antiquated model of industrial revolutionizing the place, We are in the period of, I think, our own enlightenment. And I think so much of that enlightenment comes from understanding and how we process information and how we hang onto it, right?

[00:25:21] And how, you know, when the nervous system is activated, we feel like we’re back in this physiological state of fight, fight, freeze, or font, right? So to pretend that doesn’t exist, that’s not leadership, that’s willful blindness. So that doesn’t support. Any culture, it doesn’t support anybody moving forward.

[00:25:39] So I feel that, you know, you had the wherewithal to really harness that and write about it. So honestly, in an accessible way, it’s just a gift to everyone who picks up a copy and then, you know, ultimately is a working with you or in the 

[00:25:53] Carolyn: program. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. And yeah, it really was a process. And I know when Gabo Mate released his book in September, so I’d already had a pretty good draft together.

[00:26:04] And really had combined it into my work and wove to like together a story from like when I started my business six or seven years ago, well, seven years ago now to now. So it became a lot more Folsom than when you and I had built out the cue cards. So I was ready to hand it in and then Gabo, Matt’s new book came out.

[00:26:24] And The Myth of Normal. The Myth of normal, yeah. And I read that and I was. Damn, Carolyn, you can’t be shy about this. Like, you have to be bold and don’t be afraid. And what you and I both know through our training with Alison Quinn is I’m not gonna ask about anybody’s trauma. Trauma informed leaders never, never need to ask about it, ever.

[00:26:47] Not even need to. They shouldn’t be. Mm-hmm. But understanding that it’s stored in our body. Yes. And that if we do not deal with it, our nervous system and our ability to be integrated with our thoughts, our feelings, and our actions get impacted. And that was the message I was like, the corporate world really, really needs to progress their way of thinking and how to integrate those three centers of inte.

[00:27:15] Well, 

[00:27:15] Leisse: and often I think that when people have an association of like, I’m gonna heal from trauma, or I’m gonna be healing in general, it’s like, oh, then we’re gonna be sitting around in a circle. Like, no, we’re not even talking about it. You know, going back to that example that I used of like, there’s the thing that happened that the emotional followed from the thing that happened.

[00:27:32] The thing is almost inconsequential. It’s not the thing that leaves the trauma, it’s the emotional af like wake that it leaves behind. Right? And. You know, even with N L P, we don’t spend a lot of time in the story. We spend our time figuring out what’s the effect left behind. What is the imprint of that story left behind, and what purpose does it serve for you to hang onto it right in the nervous system?

[00:28:01] If we can figure out. What is the purpose of this belief or this story that we’re hanging onto? How does that make us feel, quote unquote safe? How do we reestablish safety in a new way so that you are free to let go of the thing that doesn’t serve you anymore and create a new story, a new belief, a new thought, and therefore a new behavior action that moves you in the direction of where you wanna go?

[00:28:27] That’s a really. Really empowered place to live 

[00:28:30] Carolyn: from. Yeah. Yeah. And this whole notion of safety, that’s been an interesting journey for me as well. And I think there’s still a long way for us to go in our workplaces, in wherever, in society as well, the pandemic. Gave us a sense of physical safety and how that was threatened.

[00:28:50] And we never really, as a, in this generation, hadn’t really experienced that. But, you know, this whole notion of psychological safety and, you know, some great work done by leaders like Amy Edmondson. Here’s the piece that I learned through all of this is I learned how much safety. I wasn’t giving the people around me because I had this incessant need to keep moving and to keep producing and to.

[00:29:17] Proving my worth. Mm-hmm. And that, to me, that didn’t make sense. Like, what do you mean that’s not safe? Like I’m producing, I’m doing, I’m being good. My heart’s in the right place. But the nervous system was still dysregulated. It was hyper aroused, and it was always moving, which couldn’t give. People around me.

[00:29:36] Ooh. A place to settle down. And this is why this book and this work is so personal because I realized through my boy’s entire childhood and the whole situation that they were born into with their dad being ill before they were born, I had this like vibration, this frequency that was like intense and high moving.

[00:29:56] And it might looked like I had it all together, but there wasn’t a lot of safety going on when it comes to nervous system. And 

[00:30:05] Leisse: that creates, Again, self-fulfilling prophecy that like rest equals death. Right. Right. It’s that little, I forget what it’s called. It’s like a little mouse in Australia that if it stops moving, it dies.

[00:30:18] Yeah. And that’s what the nervous system feels like when it’s totally outta whack like that. Right. You know, you go back to childhood and start looking at these patterns that, well, what I observed was, or what I experienced was busyness and doing was equated. Some kind of safety measurement, like that’s what made me feel safe.

[00:30:38] People pleasers, people who have codependent patterns, experiences all the time. You know, we go to the ends of the earth to make other people happy because that’s what actually makes us feel quote unquote safe in our nervous system. It’s only when we realize that we’ve hit. Mass burnout or adrenal fatigue or resort to feel so resentful of the people that we love and associate with that we have to go back and be like, what the hell do I need to change about this pattern of behavior that allows me to stop doing this?

[00:31:09] Well, to stop doing this. Makes me feel so unsafe cuz I’m afraid people are gonna judge me or reject me or what have to. I gotta go back inside and realize how do I create a new level of safety with a whole bunch of other healing modalities? How do I create that new level of safety in my nervous system so that my body allows me to change that pattern?

[00:31:31] Right? And so for you that like, I gotta keep doing and keep performing and keep proving it’s exhausting. Yeah. And you know, I love, there’s a quote from Carl Young that is, if your unconscious keeps repeating the same patterns over and over again until you decide to change the behavior and go deep within yourself and figure out what purposes serves, you can’t move forward.

[00:31:53] Carolyn: Yeah. I didn’t even realize it. I couldn’t open my eyes to it and. Having to slow down through the early days of the pandemic forced a lot of people, and I know not everybody was in a position of privilege to be able to do that. I fully recognize that, and for me, I really took it as an opportunity to understand and dig in deeper.

[00:32:16] It was a gift to get some of that time back, and I wanted to bring more impact into the world. I wanted to. Be more assertive with some of my beliefs. And I was able to do that, but I couldn’t have done it on my own. I couldn’t have done it on my own without a coach like 

[00:32:34] Leisse: you. Well, that was my pleasure. And again, from like where I stand to watch all of those, I can’t think of the movie reference, but it’s like, You know, you’re watching this adventure movie and they finally, the heroin puts it all together and it’s like, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, and then they’re free just to go forward.

[00:32:50] That’s what it’s like. It’s like, oh, we did it. We unlocked all the moving pieces. Yeah. Now it’s just about, you know, putting it all together and then, then like, look where you are now. Right? Like just your whole energy and your whole business vision, like it’s so expansive and it’s just in complete. Launch mode.

[00:33:07] Carolyn: Yeah. It’s very exciting to have such a deep meaning and purpose behind what I’m doing and, and have it so personal and so, yeah. So I, you know, I wanted to have you on the podcast, one to talk about the importance of N L P as a modality for any of the leaders out there to explore. I feel we are at a stage in our work environments that leaders.

[00:33:34] Absolutely a hundred percent need to understand themselves at a much deeper level. And even if you think you’ve got it all figured out, you don’t, it’s not even a nice to do anymore. It’s a must do. Completely agree with 

[00:33:47] Leisse: you. Yeah. I feel like, you know, if the workplace is an organism with lots of moving pieces and the team is a, a living organism with lots of moving pieces, the person at the helm of that team is also a living organism.

[00:34:00] With a lot of moving pieces and if we want cohesion across the board, I mean, it starts at the top. We have to go deep to go to go 

[00:34:09] Carolyn: wide. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I’m, I’m really excited. The book’s gonna launch in two weeks, April 25th. And your fingerprints are all throughout, at least. I’m just, I’m so grateful for the work that you did with me, cuz you were such an important piece of this journey for me.

[00:34:25] So I’m so glad you were able to come. 

[00:34:27] Leisse: It’s totally my pleasure. 

[00:34:28] Carolyn: Anytime. Yeah. Now for anyone listening, if they want to learn more about the work that you do or read some of your great books, cause I know you have a few, where could they find you? Lisa 

[00:34:39] Leisse: So L E I s S E W I L C O X. And I’m pretty active on Instagram.

[00:34:47] Please Wilcox LinkedIn, Leesville. A YouTube channel, guess what? It’s Lisa Wilco. Wow. It’s a surprise. But if you start, if you started the website, that’s kind of the hub of where to follow the other tendrils that will take you to other parts of my world. Oh, little breadcrumbs. 

[00:35:02] Carolyn: Yes. I’d highly suggest following Lisa.

[00:35:04] There’s lots of great stuff and she’s funny too. Thank you. Now, to end things off, I always ask the guests who come on three questions because they are distinctly connected to the three principles of being an evolv leader. So are y’all set? Y’all ready for me to ask you these three questions? I’m nervous, but I’m ready.

[00:35:23] All right. First question, can you share a moment that was really uncomfortable for you, yet full of tremendous insight about. 

[00:35:35] Leisse: Oh, this is gonna get so real. So after what felt like an eternity, I got remarried in the fall and I was like, he’s the best guy. And I call him Mr. Wonderful. He’s an amazing man.

[00:35:46] And I was so proud to be at that this milestone meeting. Midlife, remarrying. And I had done so much work, like, so much work. I was like, perfect. I’m complete. I’ve done the work, and now I’ve been like rewarded with this incredible husband. And then I realized there was this confronting moment that I had done so much of that work on myself, for myself, and that marriage would open up a brand new opportunity for relational healing.

[00:36:15] Hmm. So that’s immediately what comes to mind, that it’s just so like. I mean, I think you’re never done the work, and I don’t think you have to stay stuck in that story either. But it was like, oh wow. So we, we’ve got this great foundation relationship to myself, and now we’re gonna like, challenge it by putting me in a, in an amazing, intimate partnership with somebody.

[00:36:37] Carolyn: Yeah. It’s funny how we can remember those moments, right? It’s like, oh, whoa, whoa. I thought I had it all. It’s like, oh, wait, wait, wait. I. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Second question. What is a practice or ritual that keeps you in a calm regulated state or returns you to a calm regulated state? I 

[00:36:56] Leisse: used to think breath work was bullshit, and then I started going Me too.

[00:37:02] I started going to a weekly breath work class and realized it’s amazing. Mm-hmm. And I think that breath work is one of those things for me. I don’t need to do it every day, but once a week feels like a deep enough ritual for me personally. And you know, I can be my own worst enemy, but when I really need to pull myself out of a fog, if I just go for a walk, especially if it’s by the water.

[00:37:27] I feel better. So the only challenge is remembering that and then then taking myself to it. Yeah. But yeah, so breathing and walking, like two of basically the easiest things that we can do. They really 

[00:37:40] Carolyn: do work. Yeah, I hear you. I used to think it was total BS as well. It says something for, uh, our. Addiction to productivity, doesn’t it?

[00:37:48] I know. All right. The last one, so my favorite one, what is a song or genre of music that makes you feel connected to others or part of something bigger than yourself? 

[00:38:00] Leisse: That is like asking, tell me your early forties, not telling me in. You’re in your early 

[00:38:06] Carolyn: forties. 

[00:38:07] Leisse: There you go. I cannot believe I’m gonna say this out loud, but.

[00:38:11] It turns out my favorite genre of music is adult singer songwriter. 

[00:38:16] Carolyn: Oh, well, it’s okay. It’s okay. 

[00:38:19] Leisse: And that could be in the seventies, it could be any, um, in the nineties it kind of spans decades. But it’s that real. I wrote this song and I’m playing it, and I’m singing it for you, and it’s based on my human experience and I, it just makes me feel so seen in other people’s stories of their own life experience.

[00:38:38] But it definitely makes me wordy too. 

[00:38:41] Carolyn: Are you gonna drop a title or an artist of what one of those songs might be? 

[00:38:45] Leisse: I mean, I love Bruce Springsteen, I love John Mayer. John Mayer and I are the exact same age and I feel like everything he writes and sings about I he totally misogynist too. So I don’t know how this is accurate, but like I feel like he sings my story.

[00:38:58] Taylor Swift, same thing, but I don’t know, I just love like adult singer songwriter Nathaniel Live Israel match. 

[00:39:06] Carolyn: Nice. I know when you said that, I thought immediately of Whitney Houston. Oh yeah. And a song for you. I know that she didn’t make that one, but the, I didn’t know my own strength song and I have to add this in.

[00:39:20] Mm-hmm. Sorry, I know we’re about to wrap up, but I’m just gonna add one more thing is when I was writing the first round, the Perfect Widow, we had talked about archetypes. Mm-hmm. And remember we came up with the three archetypes, the warrior. Remember the chapter, like The perfect widow was gonna have those four archetypes.

[00:39:38] I made a playlist and I sent it to you my life in three x. Yes, yes. And so that Whitney Houston song, I didn’t know my own strength. I played that often. In fact, doing that. Playlist really helped me pull out of my own story and realize I am part of something bigger, so I’m right with you on the artist, whatever genre you said that was, that music, it’s making you say it twice.

[00:40:06] I know. I can tell. 

[00:40:07] Leisse:

[00:40:08] Carolyn: can totally tell. It’s, it’s pretty powerful to connect to those things and realize that we are a small piece and there are so many others out there who can help us and. Again, find that safety of being with others. So I 

[00:40:22] Leisse: just have to nerd out on this for a second. Like we have this notion that connection only counts if you have this many followers or connection only counts if you have this many friends.

[00:40:32] And it’s, you know, what I have learned in 42 years is that. Connection is Connection is connection. And sometimes that is so short-lived. It could just be like a moment at the grocery store when you just really feel it. Or of course it could be a long-term relationship, but it’s that it’s not connection to a person even It’s a connection to a feeling and to a moment.

[00:40:53] And that is such a shared currency of the human experience that just absolutely, that will never, that will never not light. Yep. We better stop 

[00:41:02] Carolyn: there cuz we’ll just keep going. Who knows? Maybe we ha we’ll have you back for another episode down the road. But big love, big thank you personally and professionally for everything.

[00:41:11] Lisa, I’m really glad that the listeners got a chance to hear some of your great wisdom. So thank you so much for being on. 

[00:41:18] Leisse: Thank you, and I’ll just say publicly again, I’m so proud of you. Thank you. Thank 

[00:41:22] Carolyn: you. You can find out more details on my website, carolyn, and if you wanna drop me an email, you can do and feel free to copy me or not copy me to follow me on Instagram or LinkedIn.

[00:41:44] See you soon.

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