A Collective Perspective on Self-Care with Vicki Enns and Marwa Fadol


ūüĆü Embark on a transformative journey of self-care with Vicki Enns and Marwa Fadol in our latest soul-stirring podcast episode!

Step off the relentless treadmill of personal and professional growth that often leads us perilously close to burnout. Dive deep into a riveting conversation that redefines self-care from a solitary endeavor into a shared, vibrant pursuit of well-being.

Marwa Fadol

Marwa is a Registered Psychologist in Alberta with over 15 years of counseling experience. Marwa has also been a trainer with the Crisis and Trauma Resource Institute (CTRI) for 7 years, and is a contributing author to their 2021 book Counselling in Relationships. Marwa is passionate about helping people from diverse backgrounds engage in the counseling process in a safe and inclusive manner.

Vicki Enns

Vicki is an individual, couple and family therapist. She has a private practice in Winnipeg, Manitoba. Vicki has worked for many years as a trainer and mentor for other counsellors and helping professionals and is the former Clinical Director of CTRI. . She is the author of Gratitude and Grit: A Journal for Growing Resilience, the editor and a contributing author of  Counselling Insights and Counselling in Relationships books, and co-author of A Little Book About Trauma-Informed Workplaces. Most recently Vicki Рtogether with Marwa Fadol Рhas co-authored Self-Care Transformed: A Place for Meaning, Joy, and Community in the Helping Professions. Vicki is also the host of the CTRI’s Counselling Insights Podcast.


In their groundbreaking book, “Self Care Transformed,” Vicki and Marwa debunk the tired clich√©s of bubble baths and scented candles, steering us towards a more inclusive and holistic approach. Imagine a world where self-care is not an isolated act but a communal symphony of actions, nurturing our physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual health in unison.¬†

Discover through their compelling research and heartfelt narratives how interconnected our well-being truly is. Learn to view wellness not as segmented parts but as a harmonious whole, where neglecting one aspect can ripple through our entire being. Vicki and Marwa urge us to adopt proactive, preventative strategies, weaving self-care seamlessly into the fabric of our daily lives.

Delve into the power of vulnerability and the transformative effect it has on how we perceive and practice self-care. As Marwa poignantly reminds us, acknowledging when we’re struggling opens doors to conversations and connections, fostering an atmosphere of collective support and wellness.

Vicki connects the dots to the crucial role of safe, supportive workspaces that encourage openness and vulnerability. Imagine an organization where discussing mental health is not taboo but a welcomed dialogue, creating a thriving environment for everyone’s well-being.

In this compelling episode, Vicki and Marwa invite you to join a movement of collective self-care. Their call to action is clear: weave self-care into your daily life, embrace it as a community endeavor, and elevate your well-being and resilience.

ūüéß Are you ready to revolutionize your approach to self-care and embrace it as a collective journey? Tune in to be inspired, share your insights after listening, and let’s foster a world where self-care is everyone’s business!

We talk about:

  • [0:00] Intro

  • [5:18] Why they wanted to write this book together

  • [9:58] Is burnout inevitable when it comes to work?

  • [12:57] Why they focused on self care vs. wellness

  • [24:10] Is there one part of the wellness wheel that is more depleting?

  • [28:29] Explaining their Collectivist approach to things

  • [33:39] Suggestions for how people can create a community of wellness and self care

  • [39:32] How can we sit in discomfort even if we’re not trained professionals

  • [43:31] Where people can find their book

  • [44:25] Ending each chapter with an invitation to take a break and settle the nervous system

  • [48:34] Rapid fire questions

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Marwa: I think we all sort of walk around thinking that we have to have our act together all of the time and internally we’re struggling or we’re falling apart or we’re screaming, whatever it is, but we’re all afraid to say it, or we’re all a little bit worried about the response. And so I think part of it is creating safety in being able to say, Hey, I’m having a tough time, you know, and.

So I think that’s part of it is that people just being willing to be a little bit courageous and saying, I don’t have it all together all of the time and that’s okay. And if you don’t, let’s be in community while we figure out how to support one another, how to take care of ourselves and one another and so on and so forth.

And I think that transcends jobs. So whether you’re in an office job or whether you’re in the helping profession or whatnot, I think the reality is we all have good days and bad days. We all have times where work is the source of that and other times where work is our escape. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Carolyn: What do you think of when you hear the word self care? Is it bubble baths? Is it journaling? Is it going for a walk? Is it going to get a mani a pedi? It can mean a whole lot of different things and what you are going to hear in this upcoming conversation is a more expansive way to think of self care and how it is so important for not only our individual wellness, but our collective wellness.

I’m going to be speaking with the authors of a book called Self Care Transformed. Now both of these amazing women I met through CTRI, the Crisis and Trauma Resource Institute. It was the first resource that I found when I was writing my book about trauma informed leadership. And so Vicky and Marwa wrote this book through the pandemic.

We’re going to talk all about it. And let me just tell you a little bit about Vicky and Marwa. Vicky is an individual couple and family therapist. And she does have a private practice in Winnipeg, Manitoba. She specializes in trauma healing and also in couples therapy. She’s worked for many years as a trainer and mentor for other counselors and is the former clinical director of C.

  1. R. I. Vicky holds a master of marriage and family therapy degree and is an approved supervisor with. Two accrediting bodies. Now her partner writing this book is Marwa Fiddle. Marwa is a registered psychologist in Alberta with over 15 years of counseling experience. In her private practice, she supports others through attachment wounds, trauma, grief, and more.

And she sees her role as one of empowerment, helping people explore their values and beliefs so that they can lead authentic. intentional lives. Mar was also a trainer with the CTRI. She has been for seven years. And as I’ve already said, is a contributing author to not only this book with Vicki, but also to another book called counseling in relationships.

Now, both these two have experience in, helping professions. I am going to invite you as we have this conversation, if you are in a role that perhaps isn’t a traditional helping profession, I get that. But I’m going to invite you to consider yourself as a leader. Formal or informal, title or no title, but if you engage in work with other people, if it has a relational aspect, that could be.

So I’m going to just invite you to hold that concept in a way that best suits you, and I hope that our conversation together will give you some thoughts, some insights around how self care can transform for you and the folks you work with.


Hello, Evolve community. I’m really excited to bring you not one, but two amazing guests today. And both of these incredible women I met through CTRI, which is an institute in Canada. It is the Crisis and Trauma Resource Institute. So please welcome Marwa Fadul and Vicky Enns.

Vicki: Fadal and Vicky M. Hi, Carolyn.

Carolyn: Yeah. Now this is the first time I would say it’s the first time we’re doing a trio here. So, you know, I know that we are all quite passionate. Both of you have written this incredible book called let me just make sure I get the full title here. Self care transformed a place for meaning, joy, and community in the helping professions.

So. With the three of us, there’s going to be a lot of excitement and passion about this topic. So, we’re just going to invite all of you to be on this journey with us. We might get a little excited and talk over each other. But I’m just really excited to have you both on the show. I read your book.

It really helped bring a lot of concepts together for me being in this space of, of, of wellbeing and corporate wellness. I just think you both wrapped it. and beautifully positioned it.

¬†So I’m just really excited to talk to you both about it. Before we dig into it, do you want to just share a little bit about your background and why you wanted to write this book?

And so Marwa, why don’t we start with you?

Marwa: Sure. This book, this is a topic I think I’ve been passionate about for a very long time. And I think for many of us, probably just because we have personal experience with it. And so I think for me, sort of struggling with self care and trying to figure out how to. Take care of myself in a way that honored me, but also allowed me to do the things I wanted to do has just been something I’ve been dealing with for a while.

And so when the opportunity came to sort of brainstorm topics, this was one of the first ones that I think we both Vicky and I were like, yes, this is needed. And because it’s a conversation, I think that’s People hear self care now and they roll their eyes or this again or whatnot. So I think we really just wanted to talk about it in a way that was really meaningful because I think up until that point for me anyway, personally, it was like as a therapist, as someone who’s fully immersed in the world of mental health and have been for 17 years, it’s a necessary conversation, but often sort of happens on a more surface level, but the need was there to sort of get deeper and just sort of really break down what this word and this term and this concept really means.

And so I think that’s, that was the motivation for the book. And I hope that that’s what we did.

Carolyn: Well, I can attest to it. Absolutely. And Vicky, what about you?

Vicki: Well, you know, I’ll try not to just simply agree with everything Marwa says, but that might happen. We found ourselves astonishingly on the same page with a lot of things. And so, I too am a am a therapist. I wear several different hats, as I, most of us usually do. Therapist, clinical supervisor.

I do work with CTRI as noted and some writing. And so I think for me, the, the spark for this book’s very similar to Marwa. It’s been something I, a topic I’ve been thinking about for a long time, probably 15 years or so. I, I kind of, in my own mind and journey, I, I kind of locate the spark of it to back when I really started working in the area of trauma and trauma healing, just because I think I woke up to.

The significance of how I, as a therapist or counselor was immediately feeling impacted by doing that work. And so I think, I think, that was just a an awakening time for me early in my career. And so, but, but the timing really came around I think for the interest to be there to support us to write this book.

And and I, and, and we really started this process of writing this time around during the pandemic. And so, yeah, I think that, that whole collective experience just heightened our thinking and talking about all this too.

Carolyn: And why did you choose to write this together? Why not separately?

Marwa: I This is my first So I, I I contributed a chapter to one of our other books with CTRI Counseling and Relationships, and that was my first experience writing. And I remember having a thought talking to friends after being like, I don’t think I want to do this again.

Vicki: while more while and

Marwa: And then we got to talking, and this topic came up, and, and I was so passionate about it.

It’s something that really excited me. So I was like, okay, I’m willing to do this again, but I don’t know that I would have been nearly confident enough to Take it on alone. And Vicky has so much experience and she was so, supportive and encouraging through this process for me. So I’m so thankful that we got to do this together because she’s so brilliant.

And like I said, has a lot of experience under her belt writing and editing. And so. I think it worked out really well to have both of our perspectives on here. I think it made it a much richer book. But at least for me, I don’t know that I would have been brave enough to, even though I love the topic, I don’t know if I, at this time, would have been ready to dive in by myself.

Carolyn: I can tell you reading it. It was wonderful to see both of you share examples and perspectives and both having different life experiences. It really did add another layer of depth. And I found myself identifying sometimes with your examples a little bit more while Marwa and then other times with yours, Vicky.

And so it did, it did add, I think Another level of richness. I, now I want to, I want to, there’s so many questions I want to ask about this. I just think there’s so, so much that the listeners can listen or, or learn from.¬†


one of the things that you point out early on in the book is that many of us think burnout is inevitable.

Vicki: inevitable.

Carolyn: let’s, let’s kick off this conversation with.¬†

Is burnout inevitable or is it just part of doing our job in today’s world? Maybe Vicky, do you want to pick that one up?

Vicki: sure.

And that’s, yeah, that’s a, that’s a great question. And I, you know, honestly, I think I don’t, I don’t know that I have fully 100 percent settled on an answer to it. I think I was, Certainly one of those folks, and I think I speak to this somewhere, say something like this in the book, that I think that was something taught to me early on, not so much, not just burnout, but as I mentioned, the spark for me being really immersed in working with complex trauma and trauma healing with folks, and so I think within that field, that has been a really strong message, that, It’s inevitable that you will be impacted by this work that I still agree with.

I think I still agree that in doing this kind of work. And when I say this kind of work, I think that could be a really broad umbrella, you know, I think it’s working with people in any kind of meaningful way. Right? I think if we’re, if we’re. Opening our hearts and minds to do that work, we are going to be impacted by it.

So, however, I, I don’t think I would, I would agree anymore that we’re inevitably going to get burnt out, but, but I think, and this is what we try to speak to in the book a little bit. I think some of our common, some of the common models, if you like, or language around this that are typically available to us kind of support that idea that whether it’s from the field itself or from our respective.

Okay. Bye. Bye. Growing up and cultures and most of us who get into this work, I think, have some kind of value around being helpful to the world and being of service. Right? And so I think that tends to lend itself then that for many people, they come with a belief and a storyline that we should put others needs first and, and that we probably shouldn’t, you know, the idea of taking care of ourselves comes After, after we’re already worn out, or after the work day certainly, or after, you know, once we really, really need it.

So I think that, that has contributed to that notion that it’s inevitable. And that’s part of what we wanted to transform is that idea, is that, hey, what if we could be proactive? What if we could actually be more preventative and,

Carolyn: Well, I loved, I love this notion that you brought in after the first few chapters about like, what if we could just do this at work? Like what if we could practice self care and I know you use the term wellness, but like, what if we could integrate that into just our daily being?

Vicki: daily routine?

Carolyn: I was like, yes. Why can’t we?

Vicki: can’t we? Yeah. Absolutely. I think that’s one of the pieces I, I I tend to get most excited about. Yeah. Now, in

Carolyn: Now, in the, in the again, earlier parts of the book you talked about wellness being holistic and, you know, if I look at the title of the book, it’s self care transformed.

Vicki: A little

Carolyn: Can you tell us a little bit you know, about like, why did you not talk about wellness? Why did you talk about self care?

And then how does this integrate with these four different areas of energy? That’s what I call them. Like the physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual. Marwa, do you want to pick up on that one?

Marwa: Self care is a recognizable word. And it’s how it’s most commonly talked about. And so it felt like that was the word we needed to sort of have be the title. But the transformed came in because we really wanted to be clear that this isn’t just any old book about self care and, you know. Pedicures and bubble baths and, you know, deep breaths and going for walks and all of those things, which are lovely things to engage in.

Absolutely. This isn’t a knock on those. But a recognition that we need to go a little bit deeper, which is again where the transformation comes in. Just sort of. You know, turning the concept around and and looking at it from all angles. And so we, we sort of.

So there was that but self care sort of felt more like the, the action, like this is what we do, the verb, you know, taking care of ourselves and wellness is the state, right? The sort of the idea that this is how we want to be. We want to be well. anD so. We did a a survey I know, obviously you know this because you read the book, but for listeners who may not be familiar, we ran a survey before we even started writing and had about 13, 1500 people respond.

And one of the themes, it was a survey about self care and wellness and all of those things just to sort of see how people conceptualize those terms. And one of the themes, bar none, like one of the top themes that came through was just that holistic piece that people. felt that this isn’t just in one area of our lives, but that it encompasses all areas.

And so even you mentioned sort of the four kind of main ones that most people go to. So physical emotional, mental and spiritual but social is in there, you know, financial wellness is in there. So you could sort of really kind of take that, take that concept and expand it. But the idea is that we needed to feel.

Some level of wellness in all different areas and, and the balance shifts per person and per period of your life and what else is happening. But the reality is that most of us now recognize that we can’t afford to just pay attention to just one part of our life. And the reality is they’re all interconnected.

So even if we try to, these would all feed into one another. You know, if I take care of my physical health, that’ll make me better equipped to think clearly and have better sort of mental wellness. It’ll help my emotional regulation and my capacity to handle stress and, and so on and so forth.

Right? So we, we speak about them sort of individually. But the idea is that we’re all really connected.

Carolyn: And how, how does this notion then of all of these different elements of wellness, how does that help help us avoid burnout or mitigate burnout?

Marwa: I think it helps mitigate burnout because I think that, Going off of what Vicky said earlier to your in response to your question about is burnout inevitable the idea that we will have some level of impact with the work that we do. We give of ourselves, whether it’s in the helping profession and corporate leadership, we give of ourselves to the work that we do.

And so there’s a natural need to sort of pay attention to our inner state and how we’re doing that self awareness piece. And so, I think recognizing that for different people it’ll show up differently, right? And so I may have a lot of energy and physically I may not notice the depletion but my social energy might really get depleted and and my capacity to be there for friends and family and engage or spiritually I may get really sort of low and think what’s the point of all of this.

And so in all of those cases, any of those things will bring sort of the whole person down eventually. And so in terms of mitigating burnout, paying attention to those areas is, again, in the proactive sense, is, is I think how we can minimize that impact. So it’s not, it’s not to the level of a burnout and needing to take stress leave and so on.


Carolyn: Vicki, did you want to add anything?

Vicki: Well, the other, sure. The other thing that really comes to mind as I listen to Marwa talk about that is You know, I, I think it really also came from Marwa and my, our own collective conversations around this. And then, as she mentioned the survey, just really hearing that message strongly from the participants that this was so commonly a part of how they thought of their own, whether they framed it as wellness or self care.

And by the way, people seem to use those terms quite interchangeably a lot. But that it also kind of linked to About a bit of value based in terms of how they think about approaching their work itself And that’s that’s another piece then that we ended up kind of digging into in the book And I think is really important is that you know, however each of us define our own wellness or self care it It’s going to be most meaningful if it’s rooted in our own real sense of who we are our values Why is this work important to us not me?

Very from person to person. And so that came through as a really strong, just kind of value that in order to approach doing this work. Well, people seem to really value attending to the whole person and having. And so then that also plays into how we look after ourselves too. 

Carolyn: I, you know, I hadn’t seen, uh, wellness or self care link to values like this before. And I just had a guest on Mary Beth Highland and she wrote this book called permission to be human. And it was all about, you know, a value. She took values to a whole other level. It was pretty amazing. And. And.

I really liken them to anchors, right? Like these values can anchor us. And when we know what they are before the winds of change or the winds of chaos or the winds of burnout. are at us. When we know what they are, we can honor them and live into them. And I really appreciated that chapter in the book because for that reason, and also it allowed self care and wellness to have a broader definition for me than the bubble baths or some of the, I’ll say, quote unquote, more feminine type activities.

And I don’t, I don’t, I don’t mean to assign it to a gender, but some of the, the more sort of,¬†

Vicki: sort of ways 

Carolyn: Uh,

Ways we might treat ourself but when we root them to values, it, it just, it broadens the application of this work to everybody.

Marwa: understand, it’s

Vicki: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and it’s, I, I mean, you, you maybe noticed that, because we, that language of anchors, we, we pull that in, in our book too, right? And, and I, I, I agree with you Carolyn, I love that word. It kind of, it speaks very directly to that, Real core that link of why we are doing this, right? Why we might be pouring our heart and soul into into the kind of work that we’re doing when it when it indeed it coming back to the start of our conversation when it also does cost us something, right?

It does. Take a lot of our blood, sweat and tears, so to speak. And so if we have a, if we’re clear in ourselves as to why is this important to me to do that, then it, that can help us, I think, like Mara was talking about from the holistic perspective, that can help us be more clear. Mentally and emotionally and spiritually and relationally as to what are we willing to put into this work and then and also what are our boundaries around it and all of that helps us make better choices around around self care.

Carolyn: Yeah. Marwa, did you want to add anything there?

Vicki: early

Marwa: Vicky said it really well. I think the only thing I’d add, and maybe it’s just repeating what she said, but in different, in different words, but the piece about values, I think, was so important for us to include because, again, using the word anchor, but sort of without that anchor, our actions don’t feel as intentional.

Our choices don’t feel as, As purposeful, but when we are grounded in our values, and when we’ve had time to actually stop and think about why, like, why self care? Why do I even care about this? Why is this important to me? What does this say about my beliefs about my value or the value of the work that I’m doing?

Or so on and so forth, then we can be more intentional and have our actions and our choices align with those values, which makes it more sustainable. Right, as opposed to sort of actions that sometimes just feel like they’re, you know, we’re flying by the seat of our pants and when we get busy and we don’t have the time or energy to dedicate a lot of thought to something if, if it’s grounded in values, if it’s, it’s grounded in the things that guide all of our decision making, then it’s easier to default to actions that, that line up with that.


Carolyn: And you said, you know, early on in the book that, that there were two themes that I remember awareness and choice that you said, we’re going to go through the book and that when those themes are present and, and this book really talks about how you can find, elevate your awareness and find more choice that that actually brings freedom and joy.

To us and, and I think, you know, in, in in the world, in the way that it is and the, the, the, the sadness, the, the devastation that’s happening on so many levels

really inspired by. realizing there were things that I could do that we could do as individuals that could bring some hope bring a bit of joy, which then I think helps move us into action and feel a little bit less, less helpless. But I, I hadn’t really thought of self care again in that way and really appreciated how you both positioned that.

Vicki: Yeah, I think I think that as I noted, we we started working on this book specifically during the, during the pandemic. And I think back to that time and That was also a time, just like now, when, when the world was quite topsy turvy and so many things going on, and so, so just what you were saying there, Carolyn, it, it reminded me of and, and I, I think this influenced me in writing this book too, I remember at the time, I kind of just personally having to find a way to figure out what, what can anchor me in the midst of this chaos that, That I can feel like I’m not swinging to the extremes of ignoring shutting out life entirely or just being completely overwhelmed and rendered feeling helpless and exhausted.

And, and so one of the pieces I landed on for myself during that time and it’s maybe an example of the kind of thing we, we hope people to might discover their own version of this in this book is at the time I kind of realized something manageable I could get my focus on which was my, my goal was to just expand my mind.

Comfort or sport. Sorry. Expand my capacity to sit in discomfort

Carolyn: Hmm.

Vicki: and just work on that a little bit in every conversation. And somehow that made it feel manageable, made it feel real, realistic, but it included a sense of caring for myself, but also being open to the world. Right. And so I think that’s that delicate balance we’re all trying to find and not, not swing to the extremes.


Carolyn: Yeah. Marwa, here’s a question. Maybe you can take,

¬†I know you had the wellness wheel in as a reference. and I’ve already commented on like physical, emotional, mental, spiritual as being elements of that wellness wheel. Is there one part of that wheel that you find is depleting people more?

Maybe you could use yourself as a reference or, or people in the survey. 

Marwa: I don’t know that one really stood out over the other. buT I can speak for myself. You’re making me think. I can speak for myself. And I think that the, the, the one that I probably notice the most, it’s the one that sort of feels most tangible is the relational side of my life.

I’m an introvert on a good day. And as a therapist, my job is to be with people. So you can imagine my energy levels require a lot of work to balance them. And I love my family and I love my friends. And so I enjoy being around people. But it’s one of the first things to go. And it’s one of the first things that I notice that if I’m feeling done I don’t want to be around people.

I don’t want to see you. I don’t want you to see me. I don’t want to talk to you. Don’t ask anything of me. Just leave me be. Just let me, let me be alone. And it manifests as me not responding to messages. Me turning down invitations of, of any kind to do anything. And just wanting to like stay at home and do nothing.

And so. For me, I, I noticed that because it’s a very tangible thing versus say the, the, say, emotional or the cognitive where sometimes those things take a little bit of time for me to sort of really wake up to and so that’s probably the area in my life that I noticed the most. But yeah, I don’t know that a specific area was highlighted by people.

I think it is truly, truly, an individual thing where you know, for some people, it might be more the spiritual, where they lose a sense of purpose, a sense of direction, a sense of connection with, with something as, as, as that sort of builds up for them. For others, it may be more the physical, they’re eating worse, they’re not exercising, they’re not moving their body, they feel heavy, they feel achy, right?

So it truly could be anything. I don’t know that there’s a sort of. One that weighs out over the other. I don’t know, Vicki, if you have a different, a different thought there.

Vicki: already noted this a little bit, but I don’t think we can, well, how does it go overstate how often people in the survey mentioned Like, how they were all interlinked, like, that was the common response. Like, we, this was like, we printed these out. It was hundreds of pages. We read them all and I was highlighted.

We were highlighting themes and that was probably the most, the word balance and this whole holistic idea was such a dominant theme. And so I agree with Marwa. I don’t remember. I mean, yes, some people highlighted. Like she says, physical or relational or, or whatever, but the dominant theme was, and, and I would say that’s true for me too.

I think is, I think what I’ve learned is just this different view of of really seeing how it’s like a domino thing, how we might, we, I think we all recognize our, our signs. Like, I agree with Myra. I, my signs are both. My, my warning red flag signs will be social, like I just won’t want to talk to anybody, or or physical, stuff will happen with my body, I’ll, I’ll get klutzy and I’ll, I’ll hurt myself, like, like just by stubbing my toe or running into doorways, like those are my tangibles, but very quickly, if I, if I look a little deeper, it, it’s a domino effect, like all areas start to become impacted.

So that was just such a strong theme from our participants. Yeah.

Carolyn: Now, I find it interesting, you know, Marwa, you mentioned relational and Vicky, you mentioned social and traditionally we think of self care as an individual thing and it’s all on us. So this is another aspect of your book that it just was, it just put the pieces together. I’m like, Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Well, being self care is not an individual sport.

Vicki: Right. Yeah, yeah,

Carolyn: It is a collective activity and Hey, our world needs a lot. 

Well, I should say on this side of the world anyway we need, I think we could benefit a lot more from a collectivist approach to things. So perhaps could you each both comment on on how you saw that? Maybe that’s something in the helping professions you’ve are like always known, but how did you piece that together?

Why did it become such a, it was it a whole chapter? I don’t know. There was like a, definitely a big theme. There’s a whole chapter in there. Right.

Vicki: and if I could, if I could say like, My thinking goes back to your very first question to us, which was, how did we, why did we decide to write this book together? And I think, for me, this was one of the key pieces, is that Is that in, in talking about, I mean, as Mara noted, there was the practical side to it, but I think very quickly, we realized that.

In order for us to be able to wrap our heads around. This topic personally, we needed to do it in relationship and in conversation and so that was kind of our hope for the whole project was that it would just kind of feel like 1 big conversation and that we would embody this notion. Of of connection.

And so, speaking for myself, I think, I think some of that emphasis in my mind comes from the nature of the work I’ve done in this field. So again, working with a lot of trauma healing, and I, and I work with a lot of couples and like actual relationships, but, but just really have seen how I think more and more over the years that The secret sauce in a lot of our health healing, no matter what our experiences have been, involve healthy connection with other people.

And so, I think that was just a really strong theme for a number of different reasons that. That really that we recognized and, and was one of the things we wanted to, again, we, we struggled with the title, we struggled with, did we really want to use self care because of this exact reason you’re highlighting, like, but we, like Marwa said, we wanted it to, we, we hoped that by adding the transformed, it was like self care, which is what people recognize, and then part of that transforming is exactly what you’re highlighting, Carolyn, is that we hoped people would recognize that, yes, it’s about looking after ourselves, So But not in a vacuum, right?

How do we do that in, in, in relationship? 

Carolyn: Yeah.


Marwa: Vicky said that so beautifully. I Think that to add to that, I would say that especially again, thinking about, you know, a lot of conversation during the pandemic was about how we’re all in this together. And, you know, everybody’s going through this and you’re not alone and that sort of thing.

But, you know, you know. cliche as those, as those may be, there’s some truth to them, right? The idea is that for many of us. tHe struggle, whether with stress or burnout or vicarious trauma or whatever, is exacerbated by feelings of aloneness, like feeling like I’m in this by myself and nobody understands or I don’t know if anybody sees me.

And I think that’s a big. Part of it is that being seen and acknowledged and heard that you, you are not alone and that we’ve got you and you’ve got us and, and it’s this community that we have this collective and, and I work a lot with different communities, faith based communities sometimes on mental health and whatnot, but that’s part of the conversation always that this isn’t I like how you put it.

This isn’t an individual sport, I think is how you said it, but it’s, it’s, it’s sold to us as that way. Sometimes society and culture here in the West very much sort of makes it this individual prioritize yourself. You’re important. You need to do that. And sure. Yes, we are important, but that. There’s so much more depth and value in taking care of one another, in supporting one another, in being in community with one another, it makes it so much more transformative because A, we are relational beings, we’re social beings, we exist in relationship.

We are meant to do this thing called life together. And so why would we take this one component of it and try to do it all by ourselves? That doesn’t make sense, right? So I think this community piece, it is, it is a whole chapter in our book and and I think it’s a very important one to just sort of recognize that we take care of one another and that helps us take care of ourselves, right?

In doing that, we are taking care of ourselves.

Carolyn: Yeah. And you know, so two, two things are coming up for me right now. Often we can think of taking care of others means forgetting about ourselves. And so I, I want to make it really clear this notion of self care transformed is not an either or.

Right. It’s, we’ll do it together.¬†

What could, now, and I also want to acknowledge, I know your work involved those in, in, in sort of the traditional helping professions, right?

That, you know, in, in sort of social work therapist type environments, correct?

Marwa: yes, and when we surveyed, we sort of opened it much more so folks who are involved sort of frontline work, nurses, doctors, you know, pastors. So, all sorts of helping, not just sort of from the mental health. Yeah, education, justice, all of it. 

Yeah. Mm 

Carolyn: So, 

what are some things then that people in those professions and maybe even those who have an office job, right? You know, when we care for our colleagues, what are some things that they can do to create

Vicki: of healthcare

Carolyn: this notion of self care and wellness? At a community level or at it from a community perspective and make it a group sport or a team sport instead of an individual sport.

Some real practical

Vicki: we do. 

Carolyn: Suggestions. Do you have any,

Vicki: I think we have to start,

or I feel like we probably have to say, start by saying that it, it, it does probably start with ourselves, right? And, and, and kind of building on our own self awareness and.

aNd just even giving ourselves permission, maybe to think about it differently and proactively in the way that we’re suggesting and to, and to really give ourselves perhaps permission to prioritize that and value value this notion of self care. I mean, I think one of the, I mean, this is, this is a very low tech tip, but maybe that’s good.

I think, you know, I think, I think my main tip and one of the main things I’ve learned and how I’ve been impacted by even writing this book is. Is just the power is the power of having conversation around this. So when people have asked me, like, how has writing this book changed your self care? I mean, honestly, I think 1 of the key things is that it’s just made me a whole lot more comfortable talking about it and I bring it up a lot more easily and then people respond to that.

And I do a lot of supervision and consultation and and and with students. And so just seeing them then start to. Think about that more often and talk about it more openly and think about, as we named at the start of this conversation, talk about that, not as something separate from their work, but as part of their work they’re doing.

So, I think that’s, that’s my main thing is, is just be talking about it and working on our own, on our own stuff and be aware of maybe what gets in the way of us bringing it up more.

Marwa: hmm. Um.

Vicki: Low tech.

Carolyn: Yeah. Marwa. Yeah.

Marwa: I think I think I want to add to that. And again, it’s sort of along the same veins as what Vicky was talking about, but having conversations and I, I think specifically, and I gave an example of this in the book and activity that I was taught called lowering the water line and and it’s mentioned in the book.

I won’t go into it here, but I think, I think one of those things is our willingness to be vulnerable and share, because I think that’s part of how the conversation starts. I think we all sort of walk around thinking that we have to have our act together all of the time, and internally we’re, we’re struggling or we’re falling apart or we’re screaming, whatever it is.

But we’re all afraid to say it, or we’re all a little bit worried about the response. And so I think part of it is creating safety in being able to say, hey, I’m, I’m having a, I’m having a tough time, you know, and so I think that’s part of it is that people just being willing to be a little bit courageous and saying.

I don’t have it all together all of the time, and that’s okay. And if you don’t, let’s, let’s, let’s be in community while we figure out how to support one another, how to take care of ourselves and one another, and so on and so forth. And I think that transcends job. So whether you’re in an office job, or whether you’re in the helping profession or whatnot, I think the reality is we all have good days and bad days.

We all have times where work. Is, is the source of that and other times where work is our escape from other sources of that. But I think to be able to have those conversations with one another and to be able to share how we’re doing. So we start off the book talking about that question, how are you?

anD really sort of getting, getting more practice being honest when people say, how are you? And so it’s not just talking the talk, but then walking the walk, right? How are your actions in really fostering? Communities at work that can speak about this in a way that is not so, you know, it doesn’t bring out that eye roll response in people and that people can just have these honest conversations.

I think it starts there after that. It’s all the strategies and policies about, you know, time off and breaks and all of those things come. But I think the root of it is, can we even talk about this? Can we have these conversations?

Carolyn: And, and, you know, where my mind goes is 

for office based employees more so like helping professions, there might already be an expectation or a skill set about, okay, how can I help you? You’ve, you’ve shared this, but I think it’s important to point out that by bringing this conversation to the surface, it doesn’t mean that the expectation is to fix it.

Marwa: Yes, yes. here.

Carolyn: to, bring it to the conversation, ask for what you need. And sometimes we don’t know what we need, but to at least give space and and and Vicki, it reminds me of something you said earlier about learning to sit with discomfort.

Right. It’s uncomfortable. I, I’ve been there as, as a manager where somebody comes and like, they’ve said, like, I remember one particular instance and this individual was blaming me for them having to do all this work in the evening.

And I was like, took a deep breath and I wanted to fix it. And then I entered into a conversation and what, what I found through just opening the conversation was some. Beliefs that were untrue and they had thought that I knew all of this work was going home. And I said. Well, how would I know?

Vicki: know?


Carolyn: And, and so, and then, and then we realized like, there’s no way I would have known unless I was told.

So I just think it’s important to state that we’re not there to fix it. And we’re also not there to wallow in it for, you know, five hours of the day.¬†

Do either of you have any insider suggestions for, for those who might be listening, who aren’t necessarily trained in helping professions, but how, like, how can we sit with a bit of this discomfort?

And help 

Vicki: help,

Carolyn: help create space for a meaningful and productive conversation about wellness and self care.

Marwa: I think it starts with an internal conversation and then the external sort of follow through. And so the internal conversation is just a reminder to ourselves, I’m not being asked to fix anything, or it’s not my job to fix this, or it’s not my role to, to resolve this for this person. And a reminder that as humans, we just want to be heard.

We want to be understood. We want someone to get it. We want someone to just offer us some space and so the, the reminder for people to just, you know, thank you for sharing with that with me. I’m really sorry that you’re going through all of this and then if, if so inspired, how can I help? Or what do you need from me right now?

Or, you know, can I offer you a hug? I don’t know if everybody’s comfortable, but you know what I mean? Like, depending on your relationship with the person and so on. Thank you for sharing that with me, right? Like, the first is acknowledge what you’re being, what you’re being offered there because it’s a vulnerability, right?

For someone to sort of share that. And then just sort of a, a check in of what do you need? Would it be helpful to problem solve or would it, or do you just want to listen and just talk about it right now for a little bit and, and just sort of kind of build it up from there. So if you’re not sure what the person needs, ask.

I can do this and I can do this. What would be the most helpful right now? And like you said, sometimes people don’t know. Sometimes people just, so it’s just start off by listening. Just remember listening in and of itself is the intervention, right? That is the thing. That is the strategy is just listening and, and, and holding space for people.

And like Vicky said, and like you’ve repeated it. And part of it is just, it’s uncomfortable sitting with people’s pain and struggle. And so just sort of reminding yourself, this is not my job. My job isn’t to fix this. I’m not being asked to fix this. Right. I’m just, I’m just being asked to sort of bear witness, if you will.

Carolyn: It’s another low tech solution.

Love it. Saying something and saying something, isn’t it? Vicki, is there anything you wanted to add?¬†

Marwa: but

Vicki: also, I, and part of why I’m really appreciating we’re doing this with you, Carolyn, because I know in your, in your podcast, in your work, you’re often focusing and exploring leadership and thinking about people in those roles. And so just how important.

Marwa: start

Vicki: It is in, in order to have a safe enough workplace to, to encourage this kind of vulnerability we’re talking about.

It also, of course, really matters that that’s coming. That’s embraced kind of top down. Right? And so, and bottom up. And, and so just wanted to explicitly name that, you know, that. And in the book, you know, I think we, we talk about that too, we want to encourage people to think about bringing this into their workplace and that notion of collective wellness, but, and at the same time, recognizing that we also need to acknowledge that many folks are not working in settings where that actually would feel like a good thing or a safe thing, or they’re not, you know, it would make them feel even more vulnerable perhaps.

And so, so the steps to that, I think can be Can be as small as they need to be and so, you know, this notion of finding community, maybe it’s 1 colleague, right? Or maybe maybe it does need to start outside of our workspace. Right? And we. We tackle that more in our personal circles and then and then hopefully find find those inroads.

Happily, I think, I think more and more places are organizations and and leaders are embracing this notion to write the importance of the holistic health of of a whole staff. And so I think they are conversations that are happening more at organizational levels, which is exciting. You 

Carolyn: Yeah. Thank you. 

You know, we could talk even longer about this, but you know, maybe we’ll invite, maybe we’ll do this. We’ll invite the audience to go¬†

Vicki: find it? That 

Carolyn: could they find it? Then we could have a book club. But hey, that would be a great, that’d be a great activity to do with your team. Get copies of the book and then talk about it.

So where can people find your book?

Vicki: Well, we’ll, we’ll send you the links that you can include in your show notes around this too, but probably one of the easiest places and where people might be able to get the best deal is if they go straight to crisis and trauma Resource Institute website.

So, C. T. R. I. Institute dot com, something like that. It’s, they could also find it on Amazon and you know, on, on, in a variety of online bookstores as well. So it should be relatively easy to find if they search for it. Yeah.

Carolyn: book before

 before we go to the next part to close off the show is I really loved how you ended each chapter with an invitation to take a break and settle the nervous system down. It was brilliant.


Vicki: Yeah, and

Carolyn: obviously intentional 

Vicki: very 

intentional. But I think, I think I, I really want to throw kudos to Marwa for that, as, as I remember it. I think that was your idea and insistence it’s like, we need to encourage this. And yes, I agree. I think it, it was, it adds a, again, it, it, it models and that’s what we really hoped that the actual experience of reading the book could somehow invite people.

into the process itself. So that’s our hope with that. Yeah, that it’s encouraging people to put into practice some of what we’re talking about and that some of what they’re reading about. It was like, why were

Carolyn: Amaro, what, what inspired, what was like, why were you so passionate about it?

Marwa: I think just because of the, as Vicky said earlier in our conversation, Vicky and I had tons and tons of conversations about this and going back and forth and feeding off of one another. And we really wanted this book to be different, like we didn’t want this book to be one that people passively consumed, that people just sort of read and then sort of, that was that.

Like we wanted it to be something that really provoked thought and, and then that people, the, the very process of reading the book was an act of self care. That, that in the doing and in the reading and the doing and the reflecting and doing the exercises, that people also realized. That were again, not just paying lip service to a concept, but we really want them to go do those things.

And it’s also food for thought to sort of say, if you just want to keep going and reading, okay, force yourself to pause, maybe just sit and go get a glass of water or do the thing. So I think it was just wanting to make sure that it wasn’t, just sort of taken as a, as a text to just sort of read and then, and then you’re done, but that it was an action oriented book.

And then, and then the invitation that we leave in the conclusion for folks to, to come back and read it again and again, right? I don’t, I, our hope was that this wouldn’t be a one time book that people could come back and revisit the chapters that they need to as they need to. So, yeah.

Carolyn: Yeah. I know it, it, when I saw that, I just, a big smile, I’m like, Oh, nervous system regulation. Like it’s just, it’s, it’s I hope and, and why I do this podcast and why I wrote my book was to really help corporate. folks understand the power of the nervous system. And we don’t need to get all into the details and understand sympathetic parasympathetic autonomic parrot, like all that, but they’re just some general things.

And I, I just thought your book was amazing on so many levels and that really honed in on that, that nervous system regulation. So, we’ll make sure people have it in the show notes really encouraged. It’s a great way to kick off 2024.¬†

We’ll have contact information for both of you in, in the show notes, but really quickly, where can people find you or your work independent of the book?

Vicki: it’s still through probably two places for me would be Crisis and Trauma Resource Institute. I’m there as a, as a trainer. The other part of my work world is my private practice, Assiniboine Family Therapy, so they can Google me there.

Carolyn: Great. And Marwa?

Marwa: So, yes, CTRI am one of, I, I am one of the trainers there, so I can be found there. And then my, my other hat is my private practice as well. And so in Alberta it’s lantern psychology and consulting. And so you can look me up there. Hopefully by the time this episode airs, my website will be fully launched.

It’s, it’s still work in progress right now. Hopefully by that time, this is air, this will, this will be a good thing to light a fire.

Carolyn: There you go. There you go. Now, to end off all the podcasts on Evolve I asked the guests three questions and so we got, but we got two, so we’ve actually got six questions or three questions times two. So we’re going to start off with self awareness. You talked about how important that is in our book and there’s so much research about it for leaders.

Can you just share a short anecdote of something or a situation? where, or an outcome where your self awareness went to a higher level. Marwa, do you want to start us

Marwa: Yeah, I can, I can start us off. So what comes to mind for me, actually, isn’t a specific incident that I can pinpoint, but it was sort of coming to the awareness. We were talking earlier about sort of red flags or signs that were sort of getting out of balance. And I mentioned social or relational for me.

But the other thing that happens that really sort of. I think a turning point for me with my self awareness was my tears. I’m a crier on a good day, but when my tears are so close to the surface that someone could look at me funny and I would want to burst into tears was always a sign of, okay, you’re not okay.

What’s going on here? Why is this thing? And I don’t, I can’t pinpoint a specific time that that shifted, but it was this realization that when, I was having any kind of interaction that wasn’t going exactly how I needed it to go that I would just want to burst into tears and it was this realization of why is this happening like there was this like mental process as I’m holding back tears of. Why are you crying over this?

Carolyn: Hmm.

Marwa: is this bringing this level of a reaction when mentally I have this part of my brain that’s like, this isn’t that big of a deal. And so that for me was a huge shift in recognizing that that vulnerability for me when my tears are that close to the surface is also a sign for me to pause and look inside and¬†

Carolyn: Thanks Marwa. Vicky. 

Marwa: on.


Vicki: what comes to mind is, is an experience, and I actually tell this story in more detail. I won’t give all the context here. I talk about this in the book a little bit, several years ago, probably 2018 or so. And there was, there was a lot of things that had happened in my, in my personal life around that time that I know probably contributed to it.

But the key experience was kind of like, like Marwa, it’s, it’s like something basically where my body took over and just grabbed my thinking brain that thinks it’s in charge and, and disagreed. And so in, in the book, I talk about it as a, as a. As a run in around around rest and we both Marvin, I felt strongly about unpacking this notion of rest.

And so this experience was basically it was it was in the dark days of winter and I was definitely going through a difficult time and recovering some various things and, and I literally had the feeling one evening I was on the couch watching TV, not doing anything very profound yeah. But I went to do something and I, it’s almost like I heard my body say no, and I’ve, I’ve never had, I felt it viscerally, but it was very much a holistic experience.

Like, I felt it, it felt emotional and spiritual and physical. It was, it was, it was a very odd and it kind of scared me a little because I thought am I having a breakdown of some sort? Like, what’s happening? I didn’t, I didn’t totally understand it. BuT luckily I listened to it and, and, and I really went on a journey after that, I think of just unpacking how I had been impacted by many things.

But, but it was that experience of just feeling my body, like it was almost like I started to get up and then my body just said no and laid me back down. And then I kind of feel like this is an exaggeration, but I kind of feel like I didn’t move for the next six months. That isn’t quite true, but my pace completely changed.

And that was very important. 

Yeah. So it was a bit of a wake up call.

Marwa: We don’t

Vicki: hmm. All right,

Carolyn: Ooh.

Vicki: go 


Carolyn: Yeah, 

there’s so many things I’m thinking of, uh, with both of your examples.¬†

All right, let’s go to the second, the second question, which has to do with regulating our nervous system. And curious what rituals, practices, routines either, Both of you, if you can share one each. Keep you in a state of calm, maybe a daily practice to keep your nervous system regulated.

What can you share?

Vicki: it to my story, and so I think one of the so one of the things that I, I really listened to now and one of the gifts of that experience and that period of time I went through is I think it really, I developed a very different relationship with my self and kind of whatever that voice was that was talking to me.

And so, and I, and through my body awareness, and so, so the, the practice I do, I think is. Again, it’s very low tech and that’s a message we give a lot in this book is what’s going to be the most successful is often finding those small, tiny, yet meaningful things you can do day in and day out. And so, so for me, 1 of the pieces I do that is part of.

Now woven into my everyday work is, is between sessions or after a zoom call or is I’ve, I’ve really built in the habit of, of just taking a few moments to make sure I move my body. I stretch. I, I tune in and you know, and it’s through doing that practice over and over again that that becomes something meaningful.

But I’ve, noticed how, how easy it is. We all just push past that moment 50 times in every day, usually. And so, that’s what I try really hard not to do is to just take that moment and that gives me an opportunity to reset. It makes a huge¬†

Carolyn: Yeah. Thanks Vicki. 


Marwa: I know you said one, but, but I have two that are competing in my brain, so I’m going to say them both really

Carolyn: No problem.

Marwa: aNd the first one for me is, and Vicky alluded to it in her last, her last answer. But resting it’s and rest for me was something so, Transformative, I think as something that I think there’s so much messaging about rest and productivity and achievement and whatnot.

And so for me, one of the things I know that really helps. Regulate my nervous system, and I don’t need to necessarily do this every day, but it’s the, it’s the notion of, of just resting, whether it’s taking a nap, whether it’s just laying down in a dark room, whether it’s just, you know, playing some music and like mindlessly doing something whatever it is, but just sort of allowing myself to do nothing or to do very little in With intention not from a state of collapse because I can’t do anything else, but because I’m making a choice not to do something else.

So that’s, that’s one thing that I, when I need to, I give myself permission to do that. And then the second thing for me is so as, as someone who’s Muslim we pray five times a day, or we try to pray five times a day. And so for me, that’s one of the things when I’m consistent with my prayers or my acts of daily worship.

Those, for me, are things that help regulate my nervous system, help me pause, help me like Vicky said, tune in to how I’m doing have that moment of connection, and then be able to sort of resume my day from a place of groundedness. So, again, in the interest of transparency and honesty, I’m not always very good at it. I’m not very consistent. But I, I noticed a huge difference when I am that this is one of the things that just completely helps regulate me.

Carolyn: And I really appreciate you saying that like, Hey, I don’t do this all the time because sometimes when we’re trying to find these new routines or new practices, we can go into all or none. Well, I can’t do this every single day. So hearing, you know, experts, people like you in this profession saying, Hey, not perfect at it.

I think really adds a level of reality

to it. Yeah.

 Now, last question. Sometimes it 

can be the hardest, but I did give a little bit of a primer before we got on is this question is all about connecting, kind of building on what you were saying Marwa about connecting to something bigger, that sort of spiritual or purpose filled connection I find for me that’s music.

So that’s where the genesis of this question is. What is a song or genre of music that helps you feel connected to something bigger than yourself?

Vicki: something bigger

Carolyn: whoever wants to start this one,

Marwa: I can, I can go first because I know Vicki was first the last time. I don’t know if she’s got her answer settled yet. And I don’t know if I’m answering directly or exactly. I don’t have a specific genre. I’m a big music person myself. And music is very much something that depending on my mood and what I listen to.

But just something about the sound of that. And so There’s an artist that I’m listening to and have been listening to recently whose music, two artists and they’re connected, whose music has just been so powerful for me and helping me I don’t know what it is that, that, that about it. I don’t know if it’s just the songwriting or there’s the raw emotion in a lot of the, the lyrics and the, the singing.

But Dermot Kennedy and Hosier and We just saw Dermot Kennedy twice this year 

Carolyn: did you, I just got chills when you said that it chills just went up my body. Yeah.

Marwa: And, and we went this last time he was here in Calgary. And so we went, a group of us went, and as we left, one of my, my friends who we went with was like, wow, I didn’t come to this concert expecting a therapy session. But we all had tears at some point, but we, it was just this really moving experience.

And so, so his music recently has just, has been doing that for me. So.

Carolyn: Hmm. Thank you. Thank you.

And Vicki, what about you? 

Vicki: I will go with more of a genre, I suppose, or a type of music. There are many specific artists within it. 

? Okay, so the, okay, so the genre that I would choose is flamenco singing or flamenco guitar.

So Spanish, it’s a Spanish flamenco dance. This is also something that I. do as part of my self care, but outside of work. It’s just it’s a music that I love. It plugs me into a sense of vitality and it always gets me moving. And so there’s many different guitarists and singers, but that’s the type of music that just seems to really speak to my soul.

Carolyn: Love it. Love it. Love it. Well, thank you both for coming onto the show. I’m just so excited for people to get your book to transform the meaning of self care and, and in that really help us all individually come together and, and, and, and do this, do this work together. So thank you both so much. Really appreciate it.

Marwa: Thanks for having us, Carolyn.

Vicki: Yes. Thanks, Carolyn. This was great.

Carolyn: So just hung up with Marwa and Vicky and processing what a great conversation this was. And I’m just really, really grateful for their work to help us expand what self care means. And as somebody who has burnt out, I’m going to say one and a half times, which maybe actually means two. Maybe I should just say two, but for sure one.

I always thought self care was an individual sport, and I think that’s probably one of the biggest things out of, out of their work that I’ve really taken to heart that wellness self care, it, it’s multi dimensional, which Marwa and, and Vicky beautifully illustrated in the book. And also it’s, it’s a collective thing, so it doesn’t mean we have to fix things for each other.

But we’re not meant to do this stuff in isolation. The other thing too, I’m reflecting on when I think of of their work and also my work and what I wrote about in Evolve is this again, recognition that these different Parts of ourselves, our head, our heart, our gut or our body. You know, we heard Vicky talk about the body wisdom that she’s learned.

We heard about the emotional aspect of things, a relational aspect of, of wellness particularly Marwa was talking about that and then the thoughts that go through. So you can see integration, integration, integration, head, heart, that it’s not about one or the other. It’s, it’s about integrating them all together.

I hope this you know, our second episode into 2024 is again, another piece of inspiration and insight and work that can help you set up 2024 to give you more hope, more energy, more connection to who you are. And Hey. More integration. Thanks again for tuning in and would really, really appreciate it.

If you could leave a review of the show on any platform that you were listening to on also a rating would be great. And Hey, if you’re in there doing all that, then maybe a to it as well. Thanks for tuning in. You can always find me at carolynswara. com and we’ll see you in our next episode coming up in just another short week.

Bye for now. 


EVOLVE Podcast Episodes

Dr. Lee Cordell
Copy of eanol_podcast Card Titles  - 65
Erica Hornthal

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